08年的一次采访内容

idationofforce.Itsliketreatingtherelationshipbetweentwoindividuals.Ifoneindividualtriestocornertheother,thentheeffectwillbecounterproductive.Thatwilldonothinginhelpingresolvetheproblem.Ourpurposeistoresolvetheproblem,nottoescalatetensions.AndIalsohaveaquestionforyou:DontyouthinkthattheeffortsmadebyChinainresolvingtheKoreannuclearissueandpositionwehaveadoptedinthisregardhaveactuallyhelpedthesituationontheKoreanpeninsulamoveforthebetterdaybyday?And,ofcourse,IknowthatitstilltakestimetoseekathoroughandcompletesolutiontotheKoreannuclearissue,andonthatbasistohelpputinplacethesecurityandstabilityinNortheastAsia.But,whatIdliketostressisthatthemodelthatwehaveadopted,andtheeffortswehavemade,provetoberightinthis,inthisdirection.Zakaria:Sinceyouhonoredmebyaskingthequestion,Iwillsaytoyou,premier,thatChinaseffortsinNorthKoreahavebeenappreciatedintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworld.AndofcourseitmakespeoplewishthatChinawouldbeactiveinotherareasinjustthesameproductivewaythatitwasinNorthKoreabecauseweseethatitproducesresults.WenJiabao:Wehavegainedalotofexperienceandlearnedlessonsfromyearsofnegotiationsconcerningthesix-partytalks,andtheprogressmadeinthesix-partytalksalsohasalottodowiththeclosecooperationamongthesixparties.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutanothersetofpossibletalks?TheDalaiLamahassaidnowitappearsthathewouldacceptChinasruleinTibet,heacceptsthesocialistsysteminTibet,andwhatheasksforisculturalautonomyandacertaindegreeofpoliticalautonomy.ThetalksapparentlyarestuckatalowerlevelbetweentheTibetansandtheChinesegovernment.Whydontyou,givenyourpowerandyournegotiatingskills,taketheissueyourself--andyouorPresidentHuJintaowouldnegotiatedirectlywiththeDalaiLamaandsolvethisissueonceandforallforthebenefitoftheChinesepeople,andofcoursetheTibetanpeoplewhoarealsoinChina?WenJiabao:OurissuewiththeDalaiLamaisnotaethnic,religiousorculturalissueintheordinarysense.Itsamajorprincipledissueconcerningsafeguardingthecountrysunityorallowingeffortstoseparateacountry.Andwemustadoptatwo-prongedapproachinviewingtheDalaiLama.Ononehand,itistruethattheDalaiisareligiousleader,andheenjoyscertaininfluenceintheTibetanregion,andparticularlyinregionsthattheinhabitantsbelieveinBuddhism.And,ontheotherhand,wemustalsobeawarethatheisnotanordinaryreligiousfigure.Theso-calledgovernmentinexilefoundedbytheDalaiLamapracticesatheocraticrule.Andthepurposeofthisso-calledgovernmentinexileistoseparateTibetfromChina.Inmanyplacesallovertheworld,theDalaiLamakeepspreachingabouttheideaofaso-calledautonomyinthegreaterTibetanregion.Andactually,theso-calledautonomythathepursuesisactuallytousereligiontointerveneinpolitics.Theywanttoseparatetheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionfromthemotherland.AndmanypeopleintheUnitedStateshavenoideahowbigistheso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,theso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,preachedbytheDalaiLama,actuallycoversTibet,Sichuan,Yunnan,QinghaiandGansu--altogetherfiveprovinces.Andtheareacoveredbytheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionaccountsforaquarterofChinasterritory.Fordecades,ourpolicytowardstheDalaiLamaremainsunchanged:thatis,aslongastheDalaiLamaiswillingtorecognizethatTibetisaninalienablepartofChinasterritory,andaslongastheDalaiLamagivesuphisseparatistactivities,werewillingtohavecontactandtalkswithhimorhisrepresentatives.Now,sincerityholdsthekeytoproducingresultoutofthetalks.AftertheTibetincidentbackinthe1950s,thehighestleaderofthecentralgovernment,Mr.DengXiaoping,alsomettherepresentativesoftheDalaiLama.So,Idontthinkthereisthisproblem,aswhetherIcanhavecontactwiththeDalaiLama.Therealkeyliesintheeffectivenessofsuchcontactandtalks.Wehopethathecanuserealactionstoshowsincerityandbreakthedeadlock.Zakaria:WhatactionwouldyouliketoseefromtheDalaiLamathatwouldshowsincerity?WenJiabao:Actually,Ialreadymadeitclearthatwhenweobserveanyindividual,theDalaiLamaincluded,weshouldnotonlywatchwhat,weshouldnotonlyobservewhathesays,butalsowatchwhathedoes.Hissinceritycanbedemonstratedingivingupseparatistactivities.Zakaria:Andthenyoumightmeetwithhim?WenJiabao:Bythen,everythingdependsonthedevelopmentofthesituation.Ofcourse,talksmaycontinue,andinlightoftheprogressinthetalks,wemayalsoconsiderraisingthelevelofthetalks.Zakaria:PremierWen,yourcountryhasgrown,asyoupointedout,9?percentfor30years--fastestgrowthrateofanycountryinhistory.Ifpeoplecometoyouandsaytoyou,WhatistheChinesemodelofsucceedingasadevelopingcountry?Whatwouldyousay?Whatisthekeytoyoursuccess?Whatisthemodel?WenJiabao:Itseasytoanswerthisquestion,thatyoumaythinkaboutthisthing--thatabout30yearsago,whyChinawasnotabletogrowasfastasithasinthefollowingyears.Ithinkthisisattributabletothereformsandopening从雪山上下来&#;看大家都在谈论温总接受cnn访问的内容&#;这是上个月23日在纽约出席结合国大会的时候做的&#;当时的访问超过了预定的时间。developmentofdemocracyinChina,weneedtotakeintoaccountChinasnationalconditions,andweneedtointroduceasystemthatsuitsChinasspecialfeatures,andweneedtointroduceagradualapproach.Zakaria:PeoplesayyourestudyingtheJapanesesystembecausetheresdemocracybuttheresonlyonepartythatseemstowintheelections.IsthatthekindofmodelyouseeforChina?WenJiabao:Ithinktherearemultipleformsofdemocracyintheworld.Whatisimportantisthesubstanceofdemocracy.Whichmeansthatattheendoftheday,whatisimportantaboutdemocracyisthatwhethersuchformofdemocracycanreallyrepresentthecallingandinterestofthepeople.SocialismasIunderstanditisasystemofdemocracy.Withoutdemocracy,thereisnosocialism.Andsuchademocracyfirstandforemostshouldservetoensurepeoplesrighttodemocraticelections,oversightanddecisionmaking.Suchademocracyshouldalsohelppeopletofullydevelopthemselvesinanall-aroundwayinanenvironmentfeaturingfreedomandequality.Andsuchademocracyshouldbebasedonafull-fledgedlegalsystem.Otherwise,therewouldbechaos.Thatswhyweneedtorunthecountryaccordingtolawandensurethateveryoneisequalunderthelaw.Zakaria:Wevetalkedaboutelectionsmanytimes.Doyouthinkin25yearstherewillbenationalelectionsinwhichtherewillbeacompetition,therewillbeperhapstwoparties,thatwillberunningforapositionsuchasyourown?WenJiabao:Itshardformetopredictwhatwillhappenin25yearstime.Thisbeingsaid,Ihavethisconviction--thatChinasdemocracywillcontinuetogrow.In20to30yearstime,thewholeChinesesocietywillbemoredemocraticandfairer,andthelegalsysteminChinawillfurtherbeimproved.Thesocialismasweseeitwillfurthermatureandimprove.Zakaria:Letmeaskyou,premier,finallyacoupleofquestionsthatarepersonal.YouvesaidthatyouvereadtheworksofMarcusAureliusahundredtimes.MarcusAureliusisafamousstoicphilosopher.Myreadingofhimsaysthatoneshouldnotbeinvolvedintheself,andinanykindofpursuitsthatareself-interestedbutshouldbemoreforthecommunityasawhole.WhenIgotoChinathesedays,Iamstruckbyhowmuchindividualismthereis,howmuchconsumerismthereis.AreyoutryingtosendasignaltotheChinesepeopletothinklessaboutthemselvesandmoreaboutthecommunity?WenJiabao:ItistrueIdidreadthemeditationswrittenbyMarcusAureliusAntonioonmanyoccasions,andIwasverydeeplyimpressedbythewordsthathewroteinthebook--tobefact-wherearethosepeoplethatweregreatforatime?Theyareallgone,leavingonlyastory,orsomeevenjusthalfastory.SoIdrawtheconclusionthatonlypeopleareinthepositiontocreatehistoryandwritehistory.Iverymuchvaluemorality,andIdobelievethatentrepreneurs,economistsandstatesmenalikeshouldpaymuchmoreattentiontomoralityandethics.Inmymind,thehigheststandardtomeasuretheethicsandmoralityisjustice.ThatswhyinthemorningwhenIansweredthequestion,IsaidthatIbelieveintheveinsoftheeconomist,weshouldseethebloodofmorality.Whenwethinkabouteconomy,wethinkmoreabouttherealelementsconcerningthecompany,thecapital,themarket,thetechnology,soonandsoforth.Andwemightforgetabouttheothersortofelementsthatworkbehindthescene,andthesefactorsarealsoaffectedbythevisiblefactorslikeconvictionandmorality.Onlywhenwecombinethesetwokindsoffactors,canweputinplaceafullpictureoftheDNAoftheeconomy.ItistrueinthecourseofChinaseconomicdevelopment,somecompanieshaveactuallypursuedtheirprofitsattheexpenseofmoralityandwewillneverallowsuchthingstohappen.Wewillnotalloweconomicgrowthattheexpenseofthelossofmoralitybecausesuchapproachsimplycannotsustain.Thatswhyweadvocatethecorporate,occupationalandsocialethics.Zakaria:Letmeaskyouafinalquestion,yourexcellency.YoumusthavebeenwatchingtheAmericanelection.Whatisyourreactiontothestrangeraceandelectionthatwearehavinginthiscountry?WenJiabao:ThepresidentialelectionoftheUnitedStatesshouldbedecidedbytheAmericanpeople.ButwhatIfollowverycloselyistherelationshipbetweenChinaandtheUnitedStatesaftertheelection.Inrecentyears,therehasbeenasoundgrowthmomentuminthegrowthofChina-U.S.relations.Andwehope,andwhoeveriselectedasthepresidentandwhoeverissworninintotheWhiteHouse,nomatterwhichpartywinstheelection,thatheorsheandthepartieswillcontinuetogrowtherelationshipwithChina.AndChinahopestocontinuetoimproveandgrowitsrelationshipwiththeUnitedStatesnomatterwhowilltakeofficeandleadthenewadministrationinthiscountry.Zakaria:Onthathappynote,Ithankyou,yourexcellency.Imsureyourpeopleareworriedwetookalittleextratime.AndIthankyouinadvanceforyourkindnessandyourfrankness.不过看了视频&#;和两年前一样&#;CNN没有使用原声加字幕的方法&#;而是直接使用了翻译的声音&#;也由于这样&#;现在大家使用的中文版本&#;其实是从英文翻译过来&#;也就是说&#;和温总的原话&#;字面上肯定会有一些差异&#;甚至是含义。因为中文有意思的地方&#;就是一个词&#;一个字&#;都会让不同人产生不同的理解。札卡利亚&#;FareedZakaria&#;在08年就采访过温总&#;而且凑巧的是&#;都是在9月23日。如果看提问的问题&#;都是以美国经济开始&#;都谈到了网络自由&#;也谈到了政治体制改革&#;当时温从三方面谈如何在中国推动民主进程。正如他在这次所说&#;两年的时间&#;他对于这个话题相得更多&#;也更加清晰&#;谈论政改的一部分表达&#;在他见华文媒体的时候已经说过。不过当时的访问并不像这次&#;在中国的网络上引发太多关注。不如大家再看看08年的。从雪山上下来&#;看大家都在议论温总接受cnn访问的内容&#;这是上个月23日在纽约出席联合国大会的时候做的&#;当时的访问超过了预定的时间。不过看了视频&#;跟两年前一样&#;CNN没有使用原声加字幕的方法&#;而是直接使用了翻译的声音&#;也因为这样&#;现在大家使用的中文版本&#;其实是从英文翻译过来&#;也就是说&#;和温总的原话&#;字面上肯定会有一些差异&#;甚至是含义。因为中文有意思的地方&#;就是一个词&#;一个字&#;都会让不同人产生不同的理解。札卡利亚&#;FareedZakaria&#;在08年就采访过温总&#;而且凑巧的是&#;都是在9月23日。如果看提问的问题&#;都是以美国经济开始&#;都谈到了网络自在&#;也谈到了政治体系改革&#;当时温从三方面谈如何在中国推动民主进程。正如他在这次所说&#;两年的时间&#;他对于这个话题相得更多&#;也更加清晰&#;念叨政改的一部分抒发&#;在他见华文媒体的时候已经说过。不过当时的访问并没有像这次&#;在中国的网络上引发太多关注。不如大家再看看08年的。BelowisthecompletetranscriptofFareedZakariasinterviewwithChinesePremierWenJiabao.TheinterviewwastapedSeptember23,andportionswereshownonFareedZakariaGPSonSeptember28.以下的内容是在2008年9月23日采访&#;2008年9月28日播出。Zakaria:Wearenowbeginningtheformalinterview,justsoeveryonerealizes.WenJiabao:Beforewebegin,IwouldliketoletyouknowthatIwillusethewordsfromthebottomofmyhearttoansweryourquestions,whichmeansthatIwilltellthetruthtoallyourquestions.IalwaystellpeoplethatsometimesImaynottellwhatisonmymind,thataslongasIspeakoutwhatisonmymind,thewordsaretrue.Ithinkyouarenowinterviewingastatesman,andatthesametimeyouareinterviewingastatesmaninhiscapacityasacommonpeople.Ipreferdialoguetolong-windedspeeches,soyoucanalwaysinterruptmeandraiseyourquestions.Thatwouldcertainlymakeourdialoguemorelively.Zakaria:Ilookforwardtothechanceforthisdialogue,andIbeginbythankingyouforgivingustheopportunityandthehonor.ThefirstthingIhavetoaskyou,Ithinkisonmanypeoplesminds.WhatdoyouthinkofthecurrentfinancialcrisisaffectingtheUnitedStates,anddoesitmakeyouthinkthattheAmericanmodelhasmanyflawsinitthatwearejustrecognizingnow?WenJiabao:ItookofficeastheChinesepremiersixyearsago,andbeforethenIwasservingasthevicepremierofthecountry.WhenIwasthevicepremier,IexperiencedanotherfinancialcrisisbutinAsia.AndinwakeoftheAsianfinancialcrisis,ChinaadoptedaproactivefiscalpolicyanddecidednottodevaluetheRMB,theChinesecurrency,butdoingsowemanagedtoovercomethedifficulties.ButnowtheproblemsintheUnitedStatesstartedwiththesubprimecrisisandlateron,FannieMaeandFreddieMacwereinvolvedintheproblems,andtheLehmanBrotherswasintrouble,MerrillLynchwasintrouble,theAIGwasintrouble,andsuchlargeinvestmentbankingcompaniesandinsurancecompaniesallencounteredsystematicproblems.AndthishasmademefeelthatthistimethecrisisthatoccurredintheUnitedStatesmayhaveanimpactthatwillaffectthewholeworld.Nonetheless,infaceofsuchacrisis,wemustalsobeawarethattodaysworldisdifferentfromtheworldthatpeoplelivedinbackinthe1930s.Sothistimeweshouldjoinhandsandmeetthecrisistogether.IfthefinancialandeconomicsystemintheUnitedStatesgowrong,thentheimpactwillbefelt,notonlyinthiscountrybutalsoinChina,inAsiaandintheworldatlarge.IhavenotedahostofpoliciesandmeasuresadoptedbytheU.S.governmenttopreventanisolatedcrisisfrombecomingasystematicone,andIhopethatmeasuresandstepstheyhaveadoptedwillpayoff.IalsohopethatthesemeasuresandstepswillnotonlysavesomemajorU.S.financialcompaniesbutalsohelpstabilizetheU.S.economyandensurethattheU.S.economywillgrowonabalancedcourse.Zakaria:Whenyoulookatyourowneconomy,asyouknow,therearemanypeoplewhonowsaytherewillbeasignificantslowdownoftheChineseeconomy.TherearepeoplepredictingthatChinesegrowthratesmayslowtoasmuchas7percent.Doyouthinkthatwillhappen?Andifitdoes,Iwonder,whatdoyouthinktheconsequenceswillbeinChina?WenJiabao:Yes,indeed.Chinaseconomyhasbeengrowingatanannualaveragerateof9.6percentfor30yearsrunning.Thisisamiracle.Particularlybetweentheyear2003and2007,Chinahadenjoyedadouble-digitgrowthforitseconomy,andatthesametimetheCPIgrewinforlessthan2percentayear.ItisfairtosaythatChinahasachievedafairlyfastandsteadyeconomicgrowth.Thistime,Chinahasbeenproactiveinadoptingregulatorymeasures.Ourpreviousconsiderationsweretopreventafast-growingeconomyfrombecomingoverheatedandtopreventthefastersoaringpricesfrombecomingobviousinflation.Butthingshavechangedveryfast,andIrefertothesub-primecrisisintheUnitedStatesandtheseriousfinancialturbulencesthatfollowthesub-primecrisis.Andasaresult,wehaveseenadeclineinexternaldemand,andChinasdomesticdemandcanhardlybeincreasedinaverysignificantmannerinashortperiodoftime.Inthiscase,itistruethatwedohavethisriskofaslowdownintheChineseeconomy.Inthiscontext,wemustre-adjustthemacroeconomicpolicyinChinainordertoadaptourselvestoexternalchanges.Whatismostimportantisforustostrikeabalancebetweeneconomicgrowth,dampeningthepricerisesandbringinginflationundercontrol.AndtostrikeabalancebetweenjobcreationanddampeninginflationandIknowitsvery,verydifficulttostrikeabalanceinallthoseareas.Weneedtoadoptaflexibleandprudentmacroeconomicpolicytoadapttoexternalchangesinordertoensureveryfastandsteadyeconomicgrowthandatthesametimekeepinginflationdown.Zakaria:DoyouthinkyoucancontinuetogrowiftheUnitedStatesgoesintoamajorrecession?WenJiabao:BelowisthecompletetranscriptofFareedZakaria'sinterviewwithChinesePremierWenJiabao.TheinterviewwastapedSeptember23,andportionswereshownon"FareedZakariaGPS"onSeptember28.以下的内容是在2008年9月23日采访&#;2008年9月28日播出。upapolicyweintroducedin1978.ThisholdsthekeytoChinassuccess.Byintroducingreformandopeningup,wehavegreatlyemancipatedproductivityinChina.Wehaveoneimportantthought:thatsocialismcanalsopracticemarketeconomy.Zakaria:Peoplethinkthatsacontradiction.Youhavethemarketeconomy,wherethemarketallocatesresources,andinsocialism,itsallcentralplanning.Howdoyoumakebothwork?WenJiabao:Thecompleteformulationofoureconomicpolicyistogivefullplaytothebasicroleofmarketforcesinallocatingresourcesunderthemacroeconomicguidanceandregulationofthegovernment.Wehaveoneimportantpieceofexperienceofthepast30years:thatistoensurethatboththevisiblehandandtheinvisiblehandaregivenfullplayinregulatingthemarketforces.IfyouarefamiliarwiththeclassicalworksofAdamSmith,youwillknowthattherearetwofamousworksofhis.OneisTheWealthofNations;theotheristhebookonthemoralityandethics.And,TheWealthofNationsdealsmorewiththeinvisiblehandthatarethemarketforces.Andtheotherbookdealswithsocialequityandjustice.Andintheotherbookhewrote,hestressedtheimportanceofplayingtheregulatoryroleofthegovernmenttofurtherdistributethewealthamongthepeople.Ifinacountry,mostofthewealthisconcentratedinthehandsofthefew,thenthiscountrycanhardlywitnessharmonyandstability.ThesameapproachalsoappliestothecurrentU.S.economy.Toaddressthecurrenteconomicandfinancialproblemsinthiscountry,weneedtoapplynotonlythevisiblehandbutalsotheinvisiblehand.Zakaria:MayIaskyou--someAmericansandEuropeans,particularlyhumanrightsobservers,saythatChinahascrackeddownonhumanrightsoverthelastfewyears,thattheyhadbeenhopingthattheOlympicswouldleadtoanopeningofChina,butthatithas,therehasbeenmorerepression.Howwouldyourespondtothat?WenJiabao:ByhostingtheOlympicGames,Chinahasactuallybecomemoreopen.Anyonewithoutbiaseswillsee--haveseenthat.InthefreedomofspeechandthefreedominnewsmediacoverageareguaranteedinChina.TheChinesegovernmentattachesimportanceto,andprotects,humanrights.WehaveincorporatedtheselinesintotheChineseconstitution,andwealsoimplementthestipulationinrealearnest.Ithinkforanygovernment,whatismostimportant,istoensurethatitspeopleenjoyeachandeveryrightgiventothembytheconstitution.Includingtheirrighttosurvival,freedomandtopursuetheirhappiness.Wedontthinkthatweareimpeccableintermsofhumanrights.Itistruethatinsomeplacesandinsomeareas,wedohaveproblemsofthiskindorthatkind.Nonetheless,wearecontinuingtomakeeffortstomakeimprovements,andwewanttofurtherimprovehumanrightsinourcountry.Zakaria:WhenIgotoChinaandIminahotelandItypeinthewordsTiananmenSquareinmycomputer,Igetafirewall,whatsomepeoplecalltheGreatFirewallofChina.CanyoubeanadvancedsocietyifyoudonthavefreedomofinformationtofindoutinformationontheInternet?WenJiabao:Chinanowhasover200millionInternetusers,andthefreedomofInternetinChinaisrecognizedbymany,evenfromthewest.Nonetheless,toupholdstatesecurity,China,likemanycountriesintheworld,hasalsoimposedsomeproperrestrictions.Thatisforthesafety,thatisfortheoverallsafetyofthecountryandforthefreedomofthemajorityofthepeople.IcanalsotellyouontheInternetinChina,youcanhaveaccesstoalotofpostingsthatarequitecriticalaboutthegovernment.ItisexactlythroughreadingthesecriticalopinionsontheInternetthatwetrytolocateproblemsandfurtherimproveourwork.Idontthinkasystemoragovernmentshouldfearcriticalopinionsorviews.Onlybyheedingthosecriticalviewswoulditbepossibleforustofurtherimproveourworkandmakefurtherprogress.IfrequentlybrowsetheInternettolearnaboutasituation.Zakaria:Whatareyourfavoritesites?WenJiabao:IvebrowsedalotofInternetWebsites.Zakaria:Iwilltakeadvantageofyourkindnessandaskyouaquestionthatmanypeoplearoundtheworldwonderabout.ThereisaveryfamousphotographofyouatTiananmensquarein1989.Whatlessondidyoutakefromyourexperiencesindealingwiththatproblemin1989?WenJiabao:Ibelievethatwhilemovingaheadwitheconomicreforms,wealsoneedtoadvancepoliticalreforms,asourdevelopmentiscomprehensiveinnature,ourreformshouldalsobecomprehensive.IthinkthecoreofyourquestionisaboutthedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina.IbelievewhenitcomestothedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina,wetalkaboutprogresstobemadeinthreeareas:No.1:WeneedtograduallyimprovethedemocraticelectionsystemsothatstatepowerwilltrulybelongtothepeopleandstatepowerwillbeusedtoservethepeopleNo.2:Weneedtoimprovethelegalsystem,runthecountryaccordingtolaw,andestablishthecountryundertheruleoflawandweneedtoviewanindependentandjustjudicialsystem.No.3:Governmentshouldbesubjecttooversightbythepeopleandthatwillaskus,callonustoincreasetransparencyingovernmentaffairsandparticularlyitisalsonecessaryforgovernmenttoacceptoversightbythenewsmediaandotherparties.ThereisalsoanotherimportantaspectthatwhenitcomestoZakaria:Wearenowbeginningtheformalinterview,justsoeveryonerealizes.从雪山高低来&#;看大家都在谈论温总接受cnn访问的内容&#;这是上个月23日在纽约出席联合国大会的时候做的&#;当时的访问超过了预定的时间。不过看了视频&#;和两年前一样&#;CNN没有使用原声加字幕的方法&#;而是直接使用了翻译的声音&#;也因为这样&#;当初大家应用的中文版本&#;其实是从英文翻译过来&#;也就是说&#;和温总的原话&#;字面上肯定会有一些差异&#;甚至是含义。因为中文有意思的地方&#;就是一个词&#;一个字&#;都会让不同人发生不同的理解。札卡利亚&#;FareedZakaria&#;在08年就采访过温总&#;而且凑巧的是&#;都是在9月23日。如果看提问的问题&#;都是以美国经济开始&#;都谈到了网络自由&#;也谈到了政治体制改革&#;当时温从三方面谈如何在中国推动民主进程。正如他在这次所说&#;两年的时间&#;他对于这个话题相得更多&#;也更加清晰&#;谈论政改的一局部表达&#;在他见华文媒体的时候已经说过。不过当时的访问并没有像这次&#;在中国的网络上引发太多关注。不如大家再看看08年的。BelowisthecompletetranscriptofFareedZakariasinterviewwithChinesePremierWenJiabao.TheinterviewwastapedSeptember23,andportionswereshownonFareedZakariaGPSonSeptember28.以下的内容是在2008年9月23日采访&#;2008年9月28日播出。Zakaria:Wearenowbeginningtheformalinterview,justsoeveryonerealizes.WenJiabao:Beforewebegin,IwouldliketoletyouknowthatIwillusethewordsfromthebottomofmyhearttoansweryourquestions,whichmeansthatIwilltellthetruthtoallyourquestions.IalwaystellpeoplethatsometimesImaynottellwhatisonmymind,thataslongasIspeakoutwhatisonmymind,thewordsaretrue.Ithinkyouarenowinterviewingastatesman,andatthesametimeyouareinterviewingastatesmaninhiscapacityasacommonpeople.Ipreferdialoguetolong-windedspeeches,soyoucanalwaysinterruptmeandraiseyourquestions.Thatwouldcertainlymakeourdialoguemorelively.Zakaria:Ilookforwardtothechanceforthisdialogue,andIbeginbythankingyouforgivingustheopportunityandthehonor.ThefirstthingIhavetoaskyou,Ithinkisonmanypeoplesminds.WhatdoyouthinkofthecurrentfinancialcrisisaffectingtheUnitedStates,anddoesitmakeyouthinkthattheAmericanmodelhasmanyflawsinitthatwearejustrecognizingnow?WenJiabao:ItookofficeastheChinesepremiersixyearsago,andbeforethenIwasservingasthevicepremierofthecountry.WhenIwasthevicepremier,IexperiencedanotherfinancialcrisisbutinAsia.AndinwakeoftheAsianfinancialcrisis,ChinaadoptedaproactivefiscalpolicyanddecidednottodevaluetheRMB,theChinesecurrency,butdoingsowemanagedtoovercomethedifficulties.ButnowtheproblemsintheUnitedStatesstartedwiththesubprimecrisisandlateron,FannieMaeandFreddieMacwereinvolvedintheproblems,andtheLehmanBrotherswasintrouble,MerrillLynchwasintrouble,theAIGwasintrouble,andsuchlargeinvestmentbankingcompaniesandinsurancecompaniesallencounteredsystematicproblems.AndthishasmademefeelthatthistimethecrisisthatoccurredintheUnitedStatesmayhaveanimpactthatwillaffectthewholeworld.Nonetheless,infaceofsuchacrisis,wemustalsobeawarethattodaysworldisdifferentfromtheworldthatpeoplelivedinbackinthe1930s.Sothistimeweshouldjoinhandsandmeetthecrisistogether.IfthefinancialandeconomicsystemintheUnitedStatesgowrong,thentheimpactwillbefelt,notonlyinthiscountrybutalsoinChina,inAsiaandintheworldatlarge.IhavenotedahostofpoliciesandmeasuresadoptedbytheU.S.governmenttopreventanisolatedcrisisfrombecomingasystematicone,andIhopethatmeasuresandstepstheyhaveadoptedwillpayoff.IalsohopethatthesemeasuresandstepswillnotonlysavesomemajorU.S.financialcompaniesbutalsohelpstabilizetheU.S.economyandensurethattheU.S.economywillgrowonabalancedcourse.Zakaria:Whenyoulookatyourowneconomy,asyouknow,therearemanypeoplewhonowsaytherewillbeasignificantslowdownoftheChineseeconomy.TherearepeoplepredictingthatChinesegrowthratesmayslowtoasmuchas7percent.Doyouthinkthatwillhappen?Andifitdoes,Iwonder,whatdoyouthinktheconsequenceswillbeinChina?WenJiabao:Yes,indeed.Chinaseconomyhasbeengrowingatanannualaveragerateof9.6percentfor30yearsrunning.Thisisamiracle.Particularlybetweentheyear2003and2007,Chinahadenjoyedadouble-digitgrowthforitseconomy,andatthesametimetheCPIgrewinforlessthan2percentayear.ItisfairtosaythatChinahasachievedafairlyfastandsteadyeconomicgrowth.Thistime,Chinahasbeenproactiveinadoptingregulatorymeasures.Ourpreviousconsiderationsweretopreventafast-growingeconomyfrombecomingoverheatedandtopreventthefastersoaringpricesfrombecomingobviousinflation.Butthingshavechangedveryfast,andIrefertothesub-primecrisisintheUnitedStatesandtheseriousfinancialturbulencesthatfollowthesub-primecrisis.Andasaresult,wehaveseenadeclineinexternaldemand,andChinasdomesticdemandcanhardlybeincreasedinaverysignificantmannerinashortperiodoftime.Inthiscase,itistruethatwedohavethisriskofaslowdownintheChineseeconomy.Inthiscontext,wemustre-adjustthemacroeconomicpolicyinChinainordertoadaptourselvestoexternalchanges.Whatismostimportantisforustostrikeabalancebetweeneconomicgrowth,dampeningthepricerisesandbringinginflationundercontrol.AndtostrikeabalancebetweenjobcreationanddampeninginflationandIknowitsvery,verydifficulttostrikeabalanceinallthoseareas.Weneedtoadoptaflexibleandprudentmacroeconomicpolicytoadapttoexternalchangesinordertoensureveryfastandsteadyeconomicgrowthandatthesametimekeepinginflationdown.Zakaria:DoyouthinkyoucancontinuetogrowiftheUnitedStatesgoesintoamajorrecession?WenJiabao:WenJiabao:Beforewebegin,IwouldliketoletyouknowthatIwillusethewordsfromthebottomofmyhearttoansweryourquestions,whichmeansthatIwilltellthetruthtoallyourquestions.IalwaystellpeoplethatsometimesImaynottellwhatisonmymind,thataslongasIspeakoutwhatisonmymind,thewordsaretrue.Ithinkyouarenowinterviewingastatesman,andatthesametimeyouareinterviewingastatesmaninhiscapacityasacommonpeople.Inthefirsthalfofthisyear,orgiventhestatisticsforthefirsteightmonthsofthisyear,wecanseethatwehavemanagedtodothat.ApossibleU.S.economicrecessionwillcertainlyhaveanimpactontheChinaeconomy.Asweknowthat10yearsago,theChina-U.S.tradevolumestoodatonly$102.6billionU.S.,whiletodaythefiguressoarto$302billionU.S.,actuallyrepresentinganincreaseof1.5-fold.AshrinkingofU.S.demandwillcertainlyhaveanimpactonChinasexport.AndtheU.S.financeiscloselyconnectedwiththeChinesefinance.IfanythinggoeswrongintheU.S.financialsector,weareanxiousaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesecapital.ThatswhyintheverybeginningIhavemadeitclearthatthefinancialproblemsinthiscountrynotonlyconcernstheinterestsoftheUnitedStatesbutalsothatofChinaandtheworldatlarge.Zakaria:Thereisanothersenseinwhichweareinterdependent.ChinaisthelargestholderofU.S.Treasurybills.Bysomeaccounts,theyreworthalmost$1trillion.ItmakessomeAmericansuneasy.CanyoureassurethemthatChinawouldneverusethisstatusasaweaponinsomeway?WenJiabao:AsIsaid,webelievethattheU.S.realeconomyisstillsolidlybased.Particularlythehigh-techindustriesandthebasicindustries.Now,somethinghasgonewronginthevirtualeconomy,butifthisproblemisproperlyaddressed,thenitisstillpossibletostabilizetheeconomyinthiscountry.TheChinesegovernmenthopesverymuchthattheU.S.sidewillbeabletostabilizeitseconomyandfinanceasquicklyaspossible,andwealsohopetoseesustaineddevelopmentintheUnitedStatesasthatwillbenefitChina.Ofcourse,weareconcernedaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesemoneyhere.ButwebelievethattheUnitedStatesisacrediblecountryandparticularlyatsuchdifficulttimes,ChinahasreachedouttotheUnitedStates.Andactuallywebelievesuchahelpinghandwillhelpstabilizetheentireglobaleconomyandfinanceandtopreventamajorchaosfromoccurringintheglobaleconomicandfinancialsystem.Ibelievenowcooperationiseverything.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutChinasroleinabroadersense?ManypeopleseeChinaasasuperpoweralready,andtheywonder:whyisitnotbeingmoreactiveinpoliticalresolutionofissuessuchastheissueofDarfurortheissueofIrananditsnuclearambitions?ThereisahopethatChinawillplayaroleasaresponsiblestakeholder,touseRobertZoellicksphrasewhenhewasdeputysecretaryofstate,andthatChinawillbemoreactiveinmanagingthepoliticalproblemsintheworld,andthatsofarithasnotbeenactive.Howwouldyoureacttothat?WenJiabao:Toanswerthisquestion,Ineedtocorrectsomeoftheelementsinyourquestionfirst.ChinaisNOTasuperpower.AlthoughChinahasapopulationof1.3billionandalthoughinrecentyearsChinahasregisteredfairlyfasteconomicandsocialdevelopmentsincereformandopeningup,ChinastillhasthisproblemofunbalanceddevelopmentbetweendifferentregionsandbetweenChinasurbanandruralareas.Chinaremainsadevelopingcountry.Westillhave800millionfarmersinruralareas,andwestillhavedozensofmillionpeoplelivinginpoverty.Asamatteroffact,over60millionpeopleinruralandurbanareasinChinastillliveonallowancesforbasiclivingcostsinmycountry.Andeachyear,weneedtotakecareofabout23millionunemployedinurbanareasandabout200millionfarmerscomeandgotocitiestofindjobsinChina.Weneedtomakecommittedandveryearnesteffortstoaddressalltheseproblems.Toaddressourownproblems,weneedtodoagreatdeal.Chinaisnotasuperpower.Thatswhyweneedtofocusonourowndevelopmentandonoureffortstoimprovepeopleslives.Zakaria:ButsurelytheChinesegovernmentcouldpressuretheSudanesegovernmentortheIraniangovernmentorthegovernmentinBurmatobelessrepressive.Youhaverelationswithallthreeofthem.WenJiabao:Thatbringsmetoyoursecondquestion.Actuallyintheinternationalcommunity,Chinaisajustice-upholdingcountry.Wenevertradeourprinciples.TaketheDarfurissuethatyouraisedjustnowforexample.Chinahasalwaysadvocatedthatweneedtoadoptadual-trackapproachtoseekasolutiontotheDarfurissue.Chinawasamongthefirstcountriessendingpeace-keeperstoDarfur.ChinawasalsothefirstcountrythatgaveassistancetoSudanandwealsokeepoureffortstoengagetheleadersinSudantotrytoseekapeacefulsolutiontotheissueasquicklyaspossible.Zakaria:DoyouthinkitwouldbedangerousfortheworldifIrangotnuclearweapons?Andwhatdoyouthinktheworldshoulddototrytostopthatpossibility?WenJiabao:WearenotsupportiveofanuclearrisetoIran.WebelievethatIranhastherighttodevelopautilizationofnuclearenergyinapeacefulway.Butsucheffortsshouldbesubjecttothesafeguardsofthe[InternationalAtomicEnergyAgency],andIranshouldnotdevelopnuclearweapons.AsfarastheIraniannuclearissueisconcerned,Chinasstanceisclear-cut.Wehopethatthroughpromotingthetalksconcerningthisissue,thatwewillbeabletoencouragetheIranianauthoritiestogiveupanyideatodevelopnuclearweaponsandacceptIAEAsafeguards.Nonetheless,wehopethatwecanusepeacefultalkstoachievethepurpose,ratherthanresorttothewillfuluseofforceortheintimIpreferdialoguetolong-windedspeeches,soyoucanalwaysinterruptmeandraiseyourquestions.Thatwouldcertainlymakeourdialoguemorelively.Zakaria:Ilookforwardtothechanceforthisdialogue,andIbeginbythankingyouforgivingustheopportunityandthehonor.ThefirstthingIhavetoaskyou,Ithinkisonmanypeople'sminds.WhatdoyouthinkofthecurrentfinancialcrisisaffectingtheUnitedStates,anddoesitmakeyouthinkthattheAmericanmodelhasmanyflawsinitthatwearejustrecognizingnow?upapolicyweintroducedin1978.ThisholdsthekeytoChinassuccess.Byintroducingreformandopeningup,wehavegreatlyemancipatedproductivityinChina.Wehaveoneimportantthought:thatsocialismcanalsopracticemarketeconomy.Zakaria:Peoplethinkthatsacontradiction.Youhavethemarketeconomy,wherethemarketallocatesresources,andinsocialism,itsallcentralplanning.Howdoyoumakebothwork?WenJiabao:Thecompleteformulationofoureconomicpolicyistogivefullplaytothebasicroleofmarketforcesinallocatingresourcesunderthemacroeconomicguidanceandregulationofthegovernment.Wehaveoneimportantpieceofexperienceofthepast30years:thatistoensurethatboththevisiblehandandtheinvisiblehandaregivenfullplayinregulatingthemarketforces.IfyouarefamiliarwiththeclassicalworksofAdamSmith,youwillknowthattherearetwofamousworksofhis.OneisTheWealthofNations;theotheristhebookonthemoralityandethics.And,TheWealthofNationsdealsmorewiththeinvisiblehandthatarethemarketforces.Andtheotherbookdealswithsocialequityandjustice.Andintheotherbookhewrote,hestressedtheimportanceofplayingtheregulatoryroleofthegovernmenttofurtherdistributethewealthamongthepeople.Ifinacountry,mostofthewealthisconcentratedinthehandsofthefew,thenthiscountrycanhardlywitnessharmonyandstability.ThesameapproachalsoappliestothecurrentU.S.economy.Toaddressthecurrenteconomicandfinancialproblemsinthiscountry,weneedtoapplynotonlythevisiblehandbutalsotheinvisiblehand.Zakaria:MayIaskyou--someAmericansandEuropeans,particularlyhumanrightsobservers,saythatChinahascrackeddownonhumanrightsoverthelastfewyears,thattheyhadbeenhopingthattheOlympicswouldleadtoanopeningofChina,butthatithas,therehasbeenmorerepression.Howwouldyourespondtothat?WenJiabao:ByhostingtheOlympicGames,Chinahasactuallybecomemoreopen.Anyonewithoutbiaseswillsee--haveseenthat.InthefreedomofspeechandthefreedominnewsmediacoverageareguaranteedinChina.TheChinesegovernmentattachesimportanceto,andprotects,humanrights.WehaveincorporatedtheselinesintotheChineseconstitution,andwealsoimplementthestipulationinrealearnest.Ithinkforanygovernment,whatismostimportant,istoensurethatitspeopleenjoyeachandeveryrightgiventothembytheconstitution.Includingtheirrighttosurvival,freedomandtopursuetheirhappiness.Wedontthinkthatweareimpeccableintermsofhumanrights.Itistruethatinsomeplacesandinsomeareas,wedohaveproblemsofthiskindorthatkind.Nonetheless,wearecontinuingtomakeeffortstomakeimprovements,andwewanttofurtherimprovehumanrightsinourcountry.Zakaria:WhenIgotoChinaandIminahotelandItypeinthewordsTiananmenSquareinmycomputer,Igetafirewall,whatsomepeoplecalltheGreatFirewallofChina.CanyoubeanadvancedsocietyifyoudonthavefreedomofinformationtofindoutinformationontheInternet?WenJiabao:Chinanowhasover200millionInternetusers,andthefreedomofInternetinChinaisrecognizedbymany,evenfromthewest.Nonetheless,toupholdstatesecurity,China,likemanycountriesintheworld,hasalsoimposedsomeproperrestrictions.Thatisforthesafety,thatisfortheoverallsafetyofthecountryandforthefreedomofthemajorityofthepeople.IcanalsotellyouontheInternetinChina,youcanhaveaccesstoalotofpostingsthatarequitecriticalaboutthegovernment.ItisexactlythroughreadingthesecriticalopinionsontheInternetthatwetrytolocateproblemsandfurtherimproveourwork.Idontthinkasystemoragovernmentshouldfearcriticalopinionsorviews.Onlybyheedingthosecriticalviewswoulditbepossibleforustofurtherimproveourworkandmakefurtherprogress.IfrequentlybrowsetheInternettolearnaboutasituation.Zakaria:Whatareyourfavoritesites?WenJiabao:IvebrowsedalotofInternetWebsites.Zakaria:Iwilltakeadvantageofyourkindnessandaskyouaquestionthatmanypeoplearoundtheworldwonderabout.ThereisaveryfamousphotographofyouatTiananmensquarein1989.Whatlessondidyoutakefromyourexperiencesindealingwiththatproblemin1989?WenJiabao:Ibelievethatwhilemovingaheadwitheconomicreforms,wealsoneedtoadvancepoliticalreforms,asourdevelopmentiscomprehensiveinnature,ourreformshouldalsobecomprehensive.IthinkthecoreofyourquestionisaboutthedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina.IbelievewhenitcomestothedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina,wetalkaboutprogresstobemadeinthreeareas:No.1:WeneedtograduallyimprovethedemocraticelectionsystemsothatstatepowerwilltrulybelongtothepeopleandstatepowerwillbeusedtoservethepeopleNo.2:Weneedtoimprovethelegalsystem,runthecountryaccordingtolaw,andestablishthecountryundertheruleoflawandweneedtoviewanindependentandjustjudicialsystem.No.3:Governmentshouldbesubjecttooversightbythepeopleandthatwillaskus,callonustoincreasetransparencyingovernmentaffairsandparticularlyitisalsonecessaryforgovernmenttoacceptoversightbythenewsmediaandotherparties.ThereisalsoanotherimportantaspectthatwhenitcomestoWenJiabao:ItookofficeastheChinesepremiersixyearsago,andbeforethenIwasservingasthevicepremierofthecountry.WhenIwasthevicepremier,IexperiencedanotherfinancialcrisisbutinAsia.AndinwakeoftheAsianfinancialcrisis,ChinaadoptedaproactivefiscalpolicyanddecidednottodevaluetheRMB,theChinesecurrency,butdoingsowemanagedtoovercomethedifficulties.ButnowtheproblemsintheUnitedStatesstartedwiththesubprimecrisisandlateron,FannieMaeandFreddieMacwereinvolvedintheproblems,andtheLehmanBrotherswasintrouble,MerrillLynchwasintrouble,theAIGwasintrouble,andsuchlargeinvestmentbankingcompaniesandinsurancecompaniesallencounteredsystematicproblems.AndthishasmademefeelthatthistimethecrisisthatoccurredintheUnitedStatesmayhaveanimpactthatwillaffectthewholeworld.Nonetheless,infaceofsuchacrisis,wemustalsobeawarethattoday'sworldisdifferentfromtheworldthatpeoplelivedinbackinthe1930s.idationofforce.Itsliketreatingtherelationshipbetweentwoindividuals.Ifoneindividualtriestocornertheother,thentheeffectwillbecounterproductive.Thatwilldonothinginhelpingresolvetheproblem.Ourpurposeistoresolvetheproblem,nottoescalatetensions.AndIalsohaveaquestionforyou:DontyouthinkthattheeffortsmadebyChinainresolvingtheKoreannuclearissueandpositionwehaveadoptedinthisregardhaveactuallyhelpedthesituationontheKoreanpeninsulamoveforthebetterdaybyday?And,ofcourse,IknowthatitstilltakestimetoseekathoroughandcompletesolutiontotheKoreannuclearissue,andonthatbasistohelpputinplacethesecurityandstabilityinNortheastAsia.But,whatIdliketostressisthatthemodelthatwehaveadopted,andtheeffortswehavemade,provetoberightinthis,inthisdirection.Zakaria:Sinceyouhonoredmebyaskingthequestion,Iwillsaytoyou,premier,thatChinaseffortsinNorthKoreahavebeenappreciatedintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworld.AndofcourseitmakespeoplewishthatChinawouldbeactiveinotherareasinjustthesameproductivewaythatitwasinNorthKoreabecauseweseethatitproducesresults.WenJiabao:Wehavegainedalotofexperienceandlearnedlessonsfromyearsofnegotiationsconcerningthesix-partytalks,andtheprogressmadeinthesix-partytalksalsohasalottodowiththeclosecooperationamongthesixparties.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutanothersetofpossibletalks?TheDalaiLamahassaidnowitappearsthathewouldacceptChinasruleinTibet,heacceptsthesocialistsysteminTibet,andwhatheasksforisculturalautonomyandacertaindegreeofpoliticalautonomy.ThetalksapparentlyarestuckatalowerlevelbetweentheTibetansandtheChinesegovernment.Whydontyou,givenyourpowerandyournegotiatingskills,taketheissueyourself--andyouorPresidentHuJintaowouldnegotiatedirectlywiththeDalaiLamaandsolvethisissueonceandforallforthebenefitoftheChinesepeople,andofcoursetheTibetanpeoplewhoarealsoinChina?WenJiabao:OurissuewiththeDalaiLamaisnotaethnic,religiousorculturalissueintheordinarysense.Itsamajorprincipledissueconcerningsafeguardingthecountrysunityorallowingeffortstoseparateacountry.Andwemustadoptatwo-prongedapproachinviewingtheDalaiLama.Ononehand,itistruethattheDalaiisareligiousleader,andheenjoyscertaininfluenceintheTibetanregion,andparticularlyinregionsthattheinhabitantsbelieveinBuddhism.And,ontheotherhand,wemustalsobeawarethatheisnotanordinaryreligiousfigure.Theso-calledgovernmentinexilefoundedbytheDalaiLamapracticesatheocraticrule.Andthepurposeofthisso-calledgovernmentinexileistoseparateTibetfromChina.Inmanyplacesallovertheworld,theDalaiLamakeepspreachingabouttheideaofaso-calledautonomyinthegreaterTibetanregion.Andactually,theso-calledautonomythathepursuesisactuallytousereligiontointerveneinpolitics.Theywanttoseparatetheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionfromthemotherland.AndmanypeopleintheUnitedStateshavenoideahowbigistheso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,theso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,preachedbytheDalaiLama,actuallycoversTibet,Sichuan,Yunnan,QinghaiandGansu--altogetherfiveprovinces.Andtheareacoveredbytheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionaccountsforaquarterofChinasterritory.Fordecades,ourpolicytowardstheDalaiLamaremainsunchanged:thatis,aslongastheDalaiLamaiswillingtorecognizethatTibetisaninalienablepartofChinasterritory,andaslongastheDalaiLamagivesuphisseparatistactivities,werewillingtohavecontactandtalkswithhimorhisrepresentatives.Now,sincerityholdsthekeytoproducingresultoutofthetalks.AftertheTibetincidentbackinthe1950s,thehighestleaderofthecentralgovernment,Mr.DengXiaoping,alsomettherepresentativesoftheDalaiLama.So,Idontthinkthereisthisproblem,aswhetherIcanhavecontactwiththeDalaiLama.Therealkeyliesintheeffectivenessofsuchcontactandtalks.Wehopethathecanuserealactionstoshowsincerityandbreakthedeadlock.Zakaria:WhatactionwouldyouliketoseefromtheDalaiLamathatwouldshowsincerity?WenJiabao:Actually,Ialreadymadeitclearthatwhenweobserveanyindividual,theDalaiLamaincluded,weshouldnotonlywatchwhat,weshouldnotonlyobservewhathesays,butalsowatchwhathedoes.Hissinceritycanbedemonstratedingivingupseparatistactivities.Zakaria:Andthenyoumightmeetwithhim?WenJiabao:Bythen,everythingdependsonthedevelopmentofthesituation.Ofcourse,talksmaycontinue,andinlightoftheprogressinthetalks,wemayalsoconsiderraisingthelevelofthetalks.Zakaria:PremierWen,yourcountryhasgrown,asyoupointedout,9?percentfor30years--fastestgrowthrateofanycountryinhistory.Ifpeoplecometoyouandsaytoyou,WhatistheChinesemodelofsucceedingasadevelopingcountry?Whatwouldyousay?Whatisthekeytoyoursuccess?Whatisthemodel?WenJiabao:Itseasytoanswerthisquestion,thatyoumaythinkaboutthisthing--thatabout30yearsago,whyChinawasnotabletogrowasfastasithasinthefollowingyears.IthinkthisisattributabletothereformsandopeningSothistimeweshouldjoinhandsandmeetthecrisistogether.IfthefinancialandeconomicsystemintheUnitedStatesgowrong,thentheimpactwillbefelt,notonlyinthiscountrybutalsoinChina,inAsiaandintheworldatlarge.IhavenotedahostofpoliciesandmeasuresadoptedbytheU.S.governmenttopreventanisolatedcrisisfrombecomingasystematicone,andIhopethatmeasuresandstepstheyhaveadoptedwillpayoff.IalsohopethatthesemeasuresandstepswillnotonlysavesomemajorU.S.financialcompaniesbutalsohelpstabilizetheU.S.economyandensurethattheU.S.economywillgrowonabalancedcourse.developmentofdemocracyinChina,weneedtotakeintoaccountChinasnationalconditions,andweneedtointroduceasystemthatsuitsChinasspecialfeatures,andweneedtointroduceagradualapproach.Zakaria:PeoplesayyourestudyingtheJapanesesystembecausetheresdemocracybuttheresonlyonepartythatseemstowintheelections.IsthatthekindofmodelyouseeforChina?WenJiabao:Ithinktherearemultipleformsofdemocracyintheworld.Whatisimportantisthesubstanceofdemocracy.Whichmeansthatattheendoftheday,whatisimportantaboutdemocracyisthatwhethersuchformofdemocracycanreallyrepresentthecallingandinterestofthepeople.SocialismasIunderstanditisasystemofdemocracy.Withoutdemocracy,thereisnosocialism.Andsuchademocracyfirstandforemostshouldservetoensurepeoplesrighttodemocraticelections,oversightanddecisionmaking.Suchademocracyshouldalsohelppeopletofullydevelopthemselvesinanall-aroundwayinanenvironmentfeaturingfreedomandequality.Andsuchademocracyshouldbebasedonafull-fledgedlegalsystem.Otherwise,therewouldbechaos.Thatswhyweneedtorunthecountryaccordingtolawandensurethateveryoneisequalunderthelaw.Zakaria:Wevetalkedaboutelectionsmanytimes.Doyouthinkin25yearstherewillbenationalelectionsinwhichtherewillbeacompetition,therewillbeperhapstwoparties,thatwillberunningforapositionsuchasyourown?WenJiabao:Itshardformetopredictwhatwillhappenin25yearstime.Thisbeingsaid,Ihavethisconviction--thatChinasdemocracywillcontinuetogrow.In20to30yearstime,thewholeChinesesocietywillbemoredemocraticandfairer,andthelegalsysteminChinawillfurtherbeimproved.Thesocialismasweseeitwillfurthermatureandimprove.Zakaria:Letmeaskyou,premier,finallyacoupleofquestionsthatarepersonal.YouvesaidthatyouvereadtheworksofMarcusAureliusahundredtimes.MarcusAureliusisafamousstoicphilosopher.Myreadingofhimsaysthatoneshouldnotbeinvolvedintheself,andinanykindofpursuitsthatareself-interestedbutshouldbemoreforthecommunityasawhole.WhenIgotoChinathesedays,Iamstruckbyhowmuchindividualismthereis,howmuchconsumerismthereis.AreyoutryingtosendasignaltotheChinesepeopletothinklessaboutthemselvesandmoreaboutthecommunity?WenJiabao:ItistrueIdidreadthemeditationswrittenbyMarcusAureliusAntonioonmanyoccasions,andIwasverydeeplyimpressedbythewordsthathewroteinthebook--tobefact-wherearethosepeoplethatweregreatforatime?Theyareallgone,leavingonlyastory,orsomeevenjusthalfastory.SoIdrawtheconclusionthatonlypeopleareinthepositiontocreatehistoryandwritehistory.Iverymuchvaluemorality,andIdobelievethatentrepreneurs,economistsandstatesmenalikeshouldpaymuchmoreattentiontomoralityandethics.Inmymind,thehigheststandardtomeasuretheethicsandmoralityisjustice.ThatswhyinthemorningwhenIansweredthequestion,IsaidthatIbelieveintheveinsoftheeconomist,weshouldseethebloodofmorality.Whenwethinkabouteconomy,wethinkmoreabouttherealelementsconcerningthecompany,thecapital,themarket,thetechnology,soonandsoforth.Andwemightforgetabouttheothersortofelementsthatworkbehindthescene,andthesefactorsarealsoaffectedbythevisiblefactorslikeconvictionandmorality.Onlywhenwecombinethesetwokindsoffactors,canweputinplaceafullpictureoftheDNAoftheeconomy.ItistrueinthecourseofChinaseconomicdevelopment,somecompanieshaveactuallypursuedtheirprofitsattheexpenseofmoralityandwewillneverallowsuchthingstohappen.Wewillnotalloweconomicgrowthattheexpenseofthelossofmoralitybecausesuchapproachsimplycannotsustain.Thatswhyweadvocatethecorporate,occupationalandsocialethics.Zakaria:Letmeaskyouafinalquestion,yourexcellency.YoumusthavebeenwatchingtheAmericanelection.Whatisyourreactiontothestrangeraceandelectionthatwearehavinginthiscountry?WenJiabao:ThepresidentialelectionoftheUnitedStatesshouldbedecidedbytheAmericanpeople.ButwhatIfollowverycloselyistherelationshipbetweenChinaandtheUnitedStatesaftertheelection.Inrecentyears,therehasbeenasoundgrowthmomentuminthegrowthofChina-U.S.relations.Andwehope,andwhoeveriselectedasthepresidentandwhoeverissworninintotheWhiteHouse,nomatterwhichpartywinstheelection,thatheorsheandthepartieswillcontinuetogrowtherelationshipwithChina.AndChinahopestocontinuetoimproveandgrowitsrelationshipwiththeUnitedStatesnomatterwhowilltakeofficeandleadthenewadministrationinthiscountry.Zakaria:Onthathappynote,Ithankyou,yourexcellency.Imsureyourpeopleareworriedwetookalittleextratime.AndIthankyouinadvanceforyourkindnessandyourfrankness.Zakaria:Whenyoulookatyourowneconomy,asyouknow,therearemanypeoplewhonowsaytherewillbeasignificantslowdownoftheChineseeconomy.TherearepeoplepredictingthatChinesegrowthratesmayslowtoasmuchas7percent.Doyouthinkthatwillhappen?Andifitdoes,Iwonder,whatdoyouthinktheconsequenceswillbeinChina?WenJiabao:Yes,indeed.China'seconomyhasbeengrowingatanannualaveragerateof9.6percentfor30yearsrunning.Thisisamiracle.idationofforce.Itsliketreatingtherelationshipbetweentwoindividuals.Ifoneindividualtriestocornertheother,thentheeffectwillbecounterproductive.Thatwilldonothinginhelpingresolvetheproblem.Ourpurposeistoresolvetheproblem,nottoescalatetensions.AndIalsohaveaquestionforyou:DontyouthinkthattheeffortsmadebyChinainresolvingtheKoreannuclearissueandpositionwehaveadoptedinthisregardhaveactuallyhelpedthesituationontheKoreanpeninsulamoveforthebetterdaybyday?And,ofcourse,IknowthatitstilltakestimetoseekathoroughandcompletesolutiontotheKoreannuclearissue,andonthatbasistohelpputinplacethesecurityandstabilityinNortheastAsia.But,whatIdliketostressisthatthemodelthatwehaveadopted,andtheeffortswehavemade,provetoberightinthis,inthisdirection.Zakaria:Sinceyouhonoredmebyaskingthequestion,Iwillsaytoyou,premier,thatChinaseffortsinNorthKoreahavebeenappreciatedintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworld.AndofcourseitmakespeoplewishthatChinawouldbeactiveinotherareasinjustthesameproductivewaythatitwasinNorthKoreabecauseweseethatitproducesresults.WenJiabao:Wehavegainedalotofexperienceandlearnedlessonsfromyearsofnegotiationsconcerningthesix-partytalks,andtheprogressmadeinthesix-partytalksalsohasalottodowiththeclosecooperationamongthesixparties.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutanothersetofpossibletalks?TheDalaiLamahassaidnowitappearsthathewouldacceptChinasruleinTibet,heacceptsthesocialistsysteminTibet,andwhatheasksforisculturalautonomyandacertaindegreeofpoliticalautonomy.ThetalksapparentlyarestuckatalowerlevelbetweentheTibetansandtheChinesegovernment.Whydontyou,givenyourpowerandyournegotiatingskills,taketheissueyourself--andyouorPresidentHuJintaowouldnegotiatedirectlywiththeDalaiLamaandsolvethisissueonceandforallforthebenefitoftheChinesepeople,andofcoursetheTibetanpeoplewhoarealsoinChina?WenJiabao:OurissuewiththeDalaiLamaisnotaethnic,religiousorculturalissueintheordinarysense.Itsamajorprincipledissueconcerningsafeguardingthecountrysunityorallowingeffortstoseparateacountry.Andwemustadoptatwo-prongedapproachinviewingtheDalaiLama.Ononehand,itistruethattheDalaiisareligiousleader,andheenjoyscertaininfluenceintheTibetanregion,andparticularlyinregionsthattheinhabitantsbelieveinBuddhism.And,ontheotherhand,wemustalsobeawarethatheisnotanordinaryreligiousfigure.Theso-calledgovernmentinexilefoundedbytheDalaiLamapracticesatheocraticrule.Andthepurposeofthisso-calledgovernmentinexileistoseparateTibetfromChina.Inmanyplacesallovertheworld,theDalaiLamakeepspreachingabouttheideaofaso-calledautonomyinthegreaterTibetanregion.Andactually,theso-calledautonomythathepursuesisactuallytousereligiontointerveneinpolitics.Theywanttoseparatetheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionfromthemotherland.AndmanypeopleintheUnitedStateshavenoideahowbigistheso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,theso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,preachedbytheDalaiLama,actuallycoversTibet,Sichuan,Yunnan,QinghaiandGansu--altogetherfiveprovinces.Andtheareacoveredbytheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionaccountsforaquarterofChinasterritory.Fordecades,ourpolicytowardstheDalaiLamaremainsunchanged:thatis,aslongastheDalaiLamaiswillingtorecognizethatTibetisaninalienablepartofChinasterritory,andaslongastheDalaiLamagivesuphisseparatistactivities,werewillingtohavecontactandtalkswithhimorhisrepresentatives.Now,sincerityholdsthekeytoproducingresultoutofthetalks.AftertheTibetincidentbackinthe1950s,thehighestleaderofthecentralgovernment,Mr.DengXiaoping,alsomettherepresentativesoftheDalaiLama.So,Idontthinkthereisthisproblem,aswhetherIcanhavecontactwiththeDalaiLama.Therealkeyliesintheeffectivenessofsuchcontactandtalks.Wehopethathecanuserealactionstoshowsincerityandbreakthedeadlock.Zakaria:WhatactionwouldyouliketoseefromtheDalaiLamathatwouldshowsincerity?WenJiabao:Actually,Ialreadymadeitclearthatwhenweobserveanyindividual,theDalaiLamaincluded,weshouldnotonlywatchwhat,weshouldnotonlyobservewhathesays,butalsowatchwhathedoes.Hissinceritycanbedemonstratedingivingupseparatistactivities.Zakaria:Andthenyoumightmeetwithhim?WenJiabao:Bythen,everythingdependsonthedevelopmentofthesituation.Ofcourse,talksmaycontinue,andinlightoftheprogressinthetalks,wemayalsoconsiderraisingthelevelofthetalks.Zakaria:PremierWen,yourcountryhasgrown,asyoupointedout,9?percentfor30years--fastestgrowthrateofanycountryinhistory.Ifpeoplecometoyouandsaytoyou,WhatistheChinesemodelofsucceedingasadevelopingcountry?Whatwouldyousay?Whatisthekeytoyoursuccess?Whatisthemodel?WenJiabao:Itseasytoanswerthisquestion,thatyoumaythinkaboutthisthing--thatabout30yearsago,whyChinawasnotabletogrowasfastasithasinthefollowingyears.IthinkthisisattributabletothereformsandopeningParticularlybetweentheyear2003and2007,Chinahadenjoyedadouble-digitgrowthforitseconomy,andatthesametimetheCPIgrewinforlessthan2percentayear.ItisfairtosaythatChinahasachievedafairlyfastandsteadyeconomicgrowth.Thistime,Chinahasbeenproactiveinadoptingregulatorymeasures.Ourpreviousconsiderationsweretopreventafast-growingeconomyfrombecomingoverheatedandtopreventthefastersoaringpricesfrombecomingobviousinflation.Butthingshavechangedveryfast,andIrefertothesub-primecrisisintheUnitedStatesandtheseriousfinancialturbulencesthatfollowthesub-primecrisis.Andasaresult,wehaveseenadeclineinexternaldemand,andChina'sdomesticdemandcanhardlybeincreasedinaverysignificantmannerinashortperiodoftime.Inthiscase,itistruethatwedohavethisriskofaslowdownintheChineseeconomy.从雪山上下来&#;看大家都在谈论温总接受cnn访问的内容&#;这是上个月23日在纽约出席联合国大会的时候做的&#;当时的访问超过了预定的时间。不过看了视频&#;和两年前一样&#;CNN没有使用原声加字幕的方法&#;而是直接使用了翻译的声音&#;也因为这样&#;现在大家使用的中文版本&#;其实是从英文翻译过来&#;也就是说&#;和温总的原话&#;字面上肯定会有一些差异&#;甚至是含义。因为中文有意思的地方&#;就是一个词&#;一个字&#;都会让不同人产生不同的懂得。札卡利亚&#;FareedZakaria&#;在08年就采访过温总&#;而且凑巧的是&#;都是在9月23日。假如看提问的问题&#;都是以美国经济开始&#;都谈到了网络自由&#;也谈到了政治体制改革&#;当时温从三方面谈如何在中国推动民主进程。正如他在这次所说&#;两年的时光&#;他对于这个话题相得更多&#;也更加清晰&#;谈论政改的一部分表达&#;在他见华文媒体的时候已经说过。不过当时的访问并没有像这次&#;在中国的网络上引发太多关注。不如大家再看看08年的。BelowisthecompletetranscriptofFareedZakariasinterviewwithChinesePremierWenJiabao.TheinterviewwastapedSeptember23,andportionswereshownonFareedZakariaGPSonSeptember28.以下的内容是在2008年9月23日采访&#;2008年9月28日播出。Zakaria:Wearenowbeginningtheformalinterview,justsoeveryonerealizes.WenJiabao:Beforewebegin,IwouldliketoletyouknowthatIwillusethewordsfromthebottomofmyhearttoansweryourquestions,whichmeansthatIwilltellthetruthtoallyourquestions.IalwaystellpeoplethatsometimesImaynottellwhatisonmymind,thataslongasIspeakoutwhatisonmymind,thewordsaretrue.Ithinkyouarenowinterviewingastatesman,andatthesametimeyouareinterviewingastatesmaninhiscapacityasacommonpeople.Ipreferdialoguetolong-windedspeeches,soyoucanalwaysinterruptmeandraiseyourquestions.Thatwouldcertainlymakeourdialoguemorelively.Zakaria:Ilookforwardtothechanceforthisdialogue,andIbeginbythankingyouforgivingustheopportunityandthehonor.ThefirstthingIhavetoaskyou,Ithinkisonmanypeoplesminds.WhatdoyouthinkofthecurrentfinancialcrisisaffectingtheUnitedStates,anddoesitmakeyouthinkthattheAmericanmodelhasmanyflawsinitthatwearejustrecognizingnow?WenJiabao:ItookofficeastheChinesepremiersixyearsago,andbeforethenIwasservingasthevicepremierofthecountry.WhenIwasthevicepremier,IexperiencedanotherfinancialcrisisbutinAsia.AndinwakeoftheAsianfinancialcrisis,ChinaadoptedaproactivefiscalpolicyanddecidednottodevaluetheRMB,theChinesecurrency,butdoingsowemanagedtoovercomethedifficulties.ButnowtheproblemsintheUnitedStatesstartedwiththesubprimecrisisandlateron,FannieMaeandFreddieMacwereinvolvedintheproblems,andtheLehmanBrotherswasintrouble,MerrillLynchwasintrouble,theAIGwasintrouble,andsuchlargeinvestmentbankingcompaniesandinsurancecompaniesallencounteredsystematicproblems.AndthishasmademefeelthatthistimethecrisisthatoccurredintheUnitedStatesmayhaveanimpactthatwillaffectthewholeworld.Nonetheless,infaceofsuchacrisis,wemustalsobeawarethattodaysworldisdifferentfromtheworldthatpeoplelivedinbackinthe1930s.Sothistimeweshouldjoinhandsandmeetthecrisistogether.IfthefinancialandeconomicsystemintheUnitedStatesgowrong,thentheimpactwillbefelt,notonlyinthiscountrybutalsoinChina,inAsiaandintheworldatlarge.IhavenotedahostofpoliciesandmeasuresadoptedbytheU.S.governmenttopreventanisolatedcrisisfrombecomingasystematicone,andIhopethatmeasuresandstepstheyhaveadoptedwillpayoff.IalsohopethatthesemeasuresandstepswillnotonlysavesomemajorU.S.financialcompaniesbutalsohelpstabilizetheU.S.economyandensurethattheU.S.economywillgrowonabalancedcourse.Zakaria:Whenyoulookatyourowneconomy,asyouknow,therearemanypeoplewhonowsaytherewillbeasignificantslowdownoftheChineseeconomy.TherearepeoplepredictingthatChinesegrowthratesmayslowtoasmuchas7percent.Doyouthinkthatwillhappen?Andifitdoes,Iwonder,whatdoyouthinktheconsequenceswillbeinChina?WenJiabao:Yes,indeed.Chinaseconomyhasbeengrowingatanannualaveragerateof9.6percentfor30yearsrunning.Thisisamiracle.Particularlybetweentheyear2003and2007,Chinahadenjoyedadouble-digitgrowthforitseconomy,andatthesametimetheCPIgrewinforlessthan2percentayear.ItisfairtosaythatChinahasachievedafairlyfastandsteadyeconomicgrowth.Thistime,Chinahasbeenproactiveinadoptingregulatorymeasures.Ourpreviousconsiderationsweretopreventafast-growingeconomyfrombecomingoverheatedandtopreventthefastersoaringpricesfrombecomingobviousinflation.Butthingshavechangedveryfast,andIrefertothesub-primecrisisintheUnitedStatesandtheseriousfinancialturbulencesthatfollowthesub-primecrisis.Andasaresult,wehaveseenadeclineinexternaldemand,andChinasdomesticdemandcanhardlybeincreasedinaverysignificantmannerinashortperiodoftime.Inthiscase,itistruethatwedohavethisriskofaslowdownintheChineseeconomy.Inthiscontext,wemustre-adjustthemacroeconomicpolicyinChinainordertoadaptourselvestoexternalchanges.Whatismostimportantisforustostrikeabalancebetweeneconomicgrowth,dampeningthepricerisesandbringinginflationundercontrol.AndtostrikeabalancebetweenjobcreationanddampeninginflationandIknowitsvery,verydifficulttostrikeabalanceinallthoseareas.Weneedtoadoptaflexibleandprudentmacroeconomicpolicytoadapttoexternalchangesinordertoensureveryfastandsteadyeconomicgrowthandatthesametimekeepinginflationdown.Zakaria:DoyouthinkyoucancontinuetogrowiftheUnitedStatesgoesintoamajorrecession?WenJiabao:Inthiscontext,wemustre-adjustthemacroeconomicpolicyinChinainordertoadaptourselvestoexternalchanges.Whatismostimportantisforustostrikeabalancebetweeneconomicgrowth,dampeningthepricerisesandbringinginflationundercontrol.AndtostrikeabalancebetweenjobcreationanddampeninginflationandIknowit'svery,verydifficulttostrikeabalanceinallthoseareas.Weneedtoadoptaflexibleandprudentmacroeconomicpolicytoadapttoexternalchangesinordertoensureveryfastandsteadyeconomicgrowthandatthesametimekeepinginflationdown.developmentofdemocracyinChina,weneedtotakeintoaccountChinasnationalconditions,andweneedtointroduceasystemthatsuitsChinasspecialfeatures,andweneedtointroduceagradualapproach.Zakaria:PeoplesayyourestudyingtheJapanesesystembecausetheresdemocracybuttheresonlyonepartythatseemstowintheelections.IsthatthekindofmodelyouseeforChina?WenJiabao:Ithinktherearemultipleformsofdemocracyintheworld.Whatisimportantisthesubstanceofdemocracy.Whichmeansthatattheendoftheday,whatisimportantaboutdemocracyisthatwhethersuchformofdemocracycanreallyrepresentthecallingandinterestofthepeople.SocialismasIunderstanditisasystemofdemocracy.Withoutdemocracy,thereisnosocialism.Andsuchademocracyfirstandforemostshouldservetoensurepeoplesrighttodemocraticelections,oversightanddecisionmaking.Suchademocracyshouldalsohelppeopletofullydevelopthemselvesinanall-aroundwayinanenvironmentfeaturingfreedomandequality.Andsuchademocracyshouldbebasedonafull-fledgedlegalsystem.Otherwise,therewouldbechaos.Thatswhyweneedtorunthecountryaccordingtolawandensurethateveryoneisequalunderthelaw.Zakaria:Wevetalkedaboutelectionsmanytimes.Doyouthinkin25yearstherewillbenationalelectionsinwhichtherewillbeacompetition,therewillbeperhapstwoparties,thatwillberunningforapositionsuchasyourown?WenJiabao:Itshardformetopredictwhatwillhappenin25yearstime.Thisbeingsaid,Ihavethisconviction--thatChinasdemocracywillcontinuetogrow.In20to30yearstime,thewholeChinesesocietywillbemoredemocraticandfairer,andthelegalsysteminChinawillfurtherbeimproved.Thesocialismasweseeitwillfurthermatureandimprove.Zakaria:Letmeaskyou,premier,finallyacoupleofquestionsthatarepersonal.YouvesaidthatyouvereadtheworksofMarcusAureliusahundredtimes.MarcusAureliusisafamousstoicphilosopher.Myreadingofhimsaysthatoneshouldnotbeinvolvedintheself,andinanykindofpursuitsthatareself-interestedbutshouldbemoreforthecommunityasawhole.WhenIgotoChinathesedays,Iamstruckbyhowmuchindividualismthereis,howmuchconsumerismthereis.AreyoutryingtosendasignaltotheChinesepeopletothinklessaboutthemselvesandmoreaboutthecommunity?WenJiabao:ItistrueIdidreadthemeditationswrittenbyMarcusAureliusAntonioonmanyoccasions,andIwasverydeeplyimpressedbythewordsthathewroteinthebook--tobefact-wherearethosepeoplethatweregreatforatime?Theyareallgone,leavingonlyastory,orsomeevenjusthalfastory.SoIdrawtheconclusionthatonlypeopleareinthepositiontocreatehistoryandwritehistory.Iverymuchvaluemorality,andIdobelievethatentrepreneurs,economistsandstatesmenalikeshouldpaymuchmoreattentiontomoralityandethics.Inmymind,thehigheststandardtomeasuretheethicsandmoralityisjustice.ThatswhyinthemorningwhenIansweredthequestion,IsaidthatIbelieveintheveinsoftheeconomist,weshouldseethebloodofmorality.Whenwethinkabouteconomy,wethinkmoreabouttherealelementsconcerningthecompany,thecapital,themarket,thetechnology,soonandsoforth.Andwemightforgetabouttheothersortofelementsthatworkbehindthescene,andthesefactorsarealsoaffectedbythevisiblefactorslikeconvictionandmorality.Onlywhenwecombinethesetwokindsoffactors,canweputinplaceafullpictureoftheDNAoftheeconomy.ItistrueinthecourseofChinaseconomicdevelopment,somecompanieshaveactuallypursuedtheirprofitsattheexpenseofmoralityandwewillneverallowsuchthingstohappen.Wewillnotalloweconomicgrowthattheexpenseofthelossofmoralitybecausesuchapproachsimplycannotsustain.Thatswhyweadvocatethecorporate,occupationalandsocialethics.Zakaria:Letmeaskyouafinalquestion,yourexcellency.YoumusthavebeenwatchingtheAmericanelection.Whatisyourreactiontothestrangeraceandelectionthatwearehavinginthiscountry?WenJiabao:ThepresidentialelectionoftheUnitedStatesshouldbedecidedbytheAmericanpeople.ButwhatIfollowverycloselyistherelationshipbetweenChinaandtheUnitedStatesaftertheelection.Inrecentyears,therehasbeenasoundgrowthmomentuminthegrowthofChina-U.S.relations.Andwehope,andwhoeveriselectedasthepresidentandwhoeverissworninintotheWhiteHouse,nomatterwhichpartywinstheelection,thatheorsheandthepartieswillcontinuetogrowtherelationshipwithChina.AndChinahopestocontinuetoimproveandgrowitsrelationshipwiththeUnitedStatesnomatterwhowilltakeofficeandleadthenewadministrationinthiscountry.Zakaria:Onthathappynote,Ithankyou,yourexcellency.Imsureyourpeopleareworriedwetookalittleextratime.AndIthankyouinadvanceforyourkindnessandyourfrankness.Zakaria:DoyouthinkyoucancontinuetogrowiftheUnitedStatesgoesintoamajorrecession?WenJiabao:Inthefirsthalfofthisyear,orgiventhestatisticsforthefirsteightmonthsofthisyear,wecanseethatwehavemanagedtodothat.upapolicyweintroducedin1978.ThisholdsthekeytoChinassuccess.Byintroducingreformandopeningup,wehavegreatlyemancipatedproductivityinChina.Wehaveoneimportantthought:thatsocialismcanalsopracticemarketeconomy.Zakaria:Peoplethinkthatsacontradiction.Youhavethemarketeconomy,wherethemarketallocatesresources,andinsocialism,itsallcentralplanning.Howdoyoumakebothwork?WenJiabao:Thecompleteformulationofoureconomicpolicyistogivefullplaytothebasicroleofmarketforcesinallocatingresourcesunderthemacroeconomicguidanceandregulationofthegovernment.Wehaveoneimportantpieceofexperienceofthepast30years:thatistoensurethatboththevisiblehandandtheinvisiblehandaregivenfullplayinregulatingthemarketforces.IfyouarefamiliarwiththeclassicalworksofAdamSmith,youwillknowthattherearetwofamousworksofhis.OneisTheWealthofNations;theotheristhebookonthemoralityandethics.And,TheWealthofNationsdealsmorewiththeinvisiblehandthatarethemarketforces.Andtheotherbookdealswithsocialequityandjustice.Andintheotherbookhewrote,hestressedtheimportanceofplayingtheregulatoryroleofthegovernmenttofurtherdistributethewealthamongthepeople.Ifinacountry,mostofthewealthisconcentratedinthehandsofthefew,thenthiscountrycanhardlywitnessharmonyandstability.ThesameapproachalsoappliestothecurrentU.S.economy.Toaddressthecurrenteconomicandfinancialproblemsinthiscountry,weneedtoapplynotonlythevisiblehandbutalsotheinvisiblehand.Zakaria:MayIaskyou--someAmericansandEuropeans,particularlyhumanrightsobservers,saythatChinahascrackeddownonhumanrightsoverthelastfewyears,thattheyhadbeenhopingthattheOlympicswouldleadtoanopeningofChina,butthatithas,therehasbeenmorerepression.Howwouldyourespondtothat?WenJiabao:ByhostingtheOlympicGames,Chinahasactuallybecomemoreopen.Anyonewithoutbiaseswillsee--haveseenthat.InthefreedomofspeechandthefreedominnewsmediacoverageareguaranteedinChina.TheChinesegovernmentattachesimportanceto,andprotects,humanrights.WehaveincorporatedtheselinesintotheChineseconstitution,andwealsoimplementthestipulationinrealearnest.Ithinkforanygovernment,whatismostimportant,istoensurethatitspeopleenjoyeachandeveryrightgiventothembytheconstitution.Includingtheirrighttosurvival,freedomandtopursuetheirhappiness.Wedontthinkthatweareimpeccableintermsofhumanrights.Itistruethatinsomeplacesandinsomeareas,wedohaveproblemsofthiskindorthatkind.Nonetheless,wearecontinuingtomakeeffortstomakeimprovements,andwewanttofurtherimprovehumanrightsinourcountry.Zakaria:WhenIgotoChinaandIminahotelandItypeinthewordsTiananmenSquareinmycomputer,Igetafirewall,whatsomepeoplecalltheGreatFirewallofChina.CanyoubeanadvancedsocietyifyoudonthavefreedomofinformationtofindoutinformationontheInternet?WenJiabao:Chinanowhasover200millionInternetusers,andthefreedomofInternetinChinaisrecognizedbymany,evenfromthewest.Nonetheless,toupholdstatesecurity,China,likemanycountriesintheworld,hasalsoimposedsomeproperrestrictions.Thatisforthesafety,thatisfortheoverallsafetyofthecountryandforthefreedomofthemajorityofthepeople.IcanalsotellyouontheInternetinChina,youcanhaveaccesstoalotofpostingsthatarequitecriticalaboutthegovernment.ItisexactlythroughreadingthesecriticalopinionsontheInternetthatwetrytolocateproblemsandfurtherimproveourwork.Idontthinkasystemoragovernmentshouldfearcriticalopinionsorviews.Onlybyheedingthosecriticalviewswoulditbepossibleforustofurtherimproveourworkandmakefurtherprogress.IfrequentlybrowsetheInternettolearnaboutasituation.Zakaria:Whatareyourfavoritesites?WenJiabao:IvebrowsedalotofInternetWebsites.Zakaria:Iwilltakeadvantageofyourkindnessandaskyouaquestionthatmanypeoplearoundtheworldwonderabout.ThereisaveryfamousphotographofyouatTiananmensquarein1989.Whatlessondidyoutakefromyourexperiencesindealingwiththatproblemin1989?WenJiabao:Ibelievethatwhilemovingaheadwitheconomicreforms,wealsoneedtoadvancepoliticalreforms,asourdevelopmentiscomprehensiveinnature,ourreformshouldalsobecomprehensive.IthinkthecoreofyourquestionisaboutthedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina.IbelievewhenitcomestothedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina,wetalkaboutprogresstobemadeinthreeareas:No.1:WeneedtograduallyimprovethedemocraticelectionsystemsothatstatepowerwilltrulybelongtothepeopleandstatepowerwillbeusedtoservethepeopleNo.2:Weneedtoimprovethelegalsystem,runthecountryaccordingtolaw,andestablishthecountryundertheruleoflawandweneedtoviewanindependentandjustjudicialsystem.No.3:Governmentshouldbesubjecttooversightbythepeopleandthatwillaskus,callonustoincreasetransparencyingovernmentaffairsandparticularlyitisalsonecessaryforgovernmenttoacceptoversightbythenewsmediaandotherparties.ThereisalsoanotherimportantaspectthatwhenitcomestoApossibleU.S.economicrecessionwillcertainlyhaveanimpactontheChinaeconomy.Asweknowthat10yearsago,theChina-U.S.tradevolumestoodatonly$102.6billionU.S.,whiletodaythefiguressoarto$302billionU.S.,actuallyrepresentinganincreaseof1.5-fold.AshrinkingofU.S.demandwillcertainlyhaveanimpactonChina'sexport.AndtheU.S.financeiscloselyconnectedwiththeChinesefinance.IfanythinggoeswrongintheU.S.financialsector,weareanxiousaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesecapital.That'swhyintheverybeginningIhavemadeitclearthatthefinancialproblemsinthiscountrynotonlyconcernstheinterestsoftheUnitedStatesbutalsothatofChinaandtheworldatlarge.developmentofdemocracyinChina,weneedtotakeintoaccountChinasnationalconditions,andweneedtointroduceasystemthatsuitsChinasspecialfeatures,andweneedtointroduceagradualapproach.Zakaria:PeoplesayyourestudyingtheJapanesesystembecausetheresdemocracybuttheresonlyonepartythatseemstowintheelections.IsthatthekindofmodelyouseeforChina?WenJiabao:Ithinktherearemultipleformsofdemocracyintheworld.Whatisimportantisthesubstanceofdemocracy.Whichmeansthatattheendoftheday,whatisimportantaboutdemocracyisthatwhethersuchformofdemocracycanreallyrepresentthecallingandinterestofthepeople.SocialismasIunderstanditisasystemofdemocracy.Withoutdemocracy,thereisnosocialism.Andsuchademocracyfirstandforemostshouldservetoensurepeoplesrighttodemocraticelections,oversightanddecisionmaking.Suchademocracyshouldalsohelppeopletofullydevelopthemselvesinanall-aroundwayinanenvironmentfeaturingfreedomandequality.Andsuchademocracyshouldbebasedonafull-fledgedlegalsystem.Otherwise,therewouldbechaos.Thatswhyweneedtorunthecountryaccordingtolawandensurethateveryoneisequalunderthelaw.Zakaria:Wevetalkedaboutelectionsmanytimes.Doyouthinkin25yearstherewillbenationalelectionsinwhichtherewillbeacompetition,therewillbeperhapstwoparties,thatwillberunningforapositionsuchasyourown?WenJiabao:Itshardformetopredictwhatwillhappenin25yearstime.Thisbeingsaid,Ihavethisconviction--thatChinasdemocracywillcontinuetogrow.In20to30yearstime,thewholeChinesesocietywillbemoredemocraticandfairer,andthelegalsysteminChinawillfurtherbeimproved.Thesocialismasweseeitwillfurthermatureandimprove.Zakaria:Letmeaskyou,premier,finallyacoupleofquestionsthatarepersonal.YouvesaidthatyouvereadtheworksofMarcusAureliusahundredtimes.MarcusAureliusisafamousstoicphilosopher.Myreadingofhimsaysthatoneshouldnotbeinvolvedintheself,andinanykindofpursuitsthatareself-interestedbutshouldbemoreforthecommunityasawhole.WhenIgotoChinathesedays,Iamstruckbyhowmuchindividualismthereis,howmuchconsumerismthereis.AreyoutryingtosendasignaltotheChinesepeopletothinklessaboutthemselvesandmoreaboutthecommunity?WenJiabao:ItistrueIdidreadthemeditationswrittenbyMarcusAureliusAntonioonmanyoccasions,andIwasverydeeplyimpressedbythewordsthathewroteinthebook--tobefact-wherearethosepeoplethatweregreatforatime?Theyareallgone,leavingonlyastory,orsomeevenjusthalfastory.SoIdrawtheconclusionthatonlypeopleareinthepositiontocreatehistoryandwritehistory.Iverymuchvaluemorality,andIdobelievethatentrepreneurs,economistsandstatesmenalikeshouldpaymuchmoreattentiontomoralityandethics.Inmymind,thehigheststandardtomeasuretheethicsandmoralityisjustice.ThatswhyinthemorningwhenIansweredthequestion,IsaidthatIbelieveintheveinsoftheeconomist,weshouldseethebloodofmorality.Whenwethinkabouteconomy,wethinkmoreabouttherealelementsconcerningthecompany,thecapital,themarket,thetechnology,soonandsoforth.Andwemightforgetabouttheothersortofelementsthatworkbehindthescene,andthesefactorsarealsoaffectedbythevisiblefactorslikeconvictionandmorality.Onlywhenwecombinethesetwokindsoffactors,canweputinplaceafullpictureoftheDNAoftheeconomy.ItistrueinthecourseofChinaseconomicdevelopment,somecompanieshaveactuallypursuedtheirprofitsattheexpenseofmoralityandwewillneverallowsuchthingstohappen.Wewillnotalloweconomicgrowthattheexpenseofthelossofmoralitybecausesuchapproachsimplycannotsustain.Thatswhyweadvocatethecorporate,occupationalandsocialethics.Zakaria:Letmeaskyouafinalquestion,yourexcellency.YoumusthavebeenwatchingtheAmericanelection.Whatisyourreactiontothestrangeraceandelectionthatwearehavinginthiscountry?WenJiabao:ThepresidentialelectionoftheUnitedStatesshouldbedecidedbytheAmericanpeople.ButwhatIfollowverycloselyistherelationshipbetweenChinaandtheUnitedStatesaftertheelection.Inrecentyears,therehasbeenasoundgrowthmomentuminthegrowthofChina-U.S.relations.Andwehope,andwhoeveriselectedasthepresidentandwhoeverissworninintotheWhiteHouse,nomatterwhichpartywinstheelection,thatheorsheandthepartieswillcontinuetogrowtherelationshipwithChina.AndChinahopestocontinuetoimproveandgrowitsrelationshipwiththeUnitedStatesnomatterwhowilltakeofficeandleadthenewadministrationinthiscountry.Zakaria:Onthathappynote,Ithankyou,yourexcellency.Imsureyourpeopleareworriedwetookalittleextratime.AndIthankyouinadvanceforyourkindnessandyourfrankness.Zakaria:Thereisanothersenseinwhichweareinterdependent.ChinaisthelargestholderofU.S.Treasurybills.Bysomeaccounts,they'reworthalmost$1trillion.ItmakessomeAmericansuneasy.CanyoureassurethemthatChinawouldneverusethisstatusasaweaponinsomeway?idationofforce.Itsliketreatingtherelationshipbetweentwoindividuals.Ifoneindividualtriestocornertheother,thentheeffectwillbecounterproductive.Thatwilldonothinginhelpingresolvetheproblem.Ourpurposeistoresolvetheproblem,nottoescalatetensions.AndIalsohaveaquestionforyou:DontyouthinkthattheeffortsmadebyChinainresolvingtheKoreannuclearissueandpositionwehaveadoptedinthisregardhaveactuallyhelpedthesituationontheKoreanpeninsulamoveforthebetterdaybyday?And,ofcourse,IknowthatitstilltakestimetoseekathoroughandcompletesolutiontotheKoreannuclearissue,andonthatbasistohelpputinplacethesecurityandstabilityinNortheastAsia.But,whatIdliketostressisthatthemodelthatwehaveadopted,andtheeffortswehavemade,provetoberightinthis,inthisdirection.Zakaria:Sinceyouhonoredmebyaskingthequestion,Iwillsaytoyou,premier,thatChinaseffortsinNorthKoreahavebeenappreciatedintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworld.AndofcourseitmakespeoplewishthatChinawouldbeactiveinotherareasinjustthesameproductivewaythatitwasinNorthKoreabecauseweseethatitproducesresults.WenJiabao:Wehavegainedalotofexperienceandlearnedlessonsfromyearsofnegotiationsconcerningthesix-partytalks,andtheprogressmadeinthesix-partytalksalsohasalottodowiththeclosecooperationamongthesixparties.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutanothersetofpossibletalks?TheDalaiLamahassaidnowitappearsthathewouldacceptChinasruleinTibet,heacceptsthesocialistsysteminTibet,andwhatheasksforisculturalautonomyandacertaindegreeofpoliticalautonomy.ThetalksapparentlyarestuckatalowerlevelbetweentheTibetansandtheChinesegovernment.Whydontyou,givenyourpowerandyournegotiatingskills,taketheissueyourself--andyouorPresidentHuJintaowouldnegotiatedirectlywiththeDalaiLamaandsolvethisissueonceandforallforthebenefitoftheChinesepeople,andofcoursetheTibetanpeoplewhoarealsoinChina?WenJiabao:OurissuewiththeDalaiLamaisnotaethnic,religiousorculturalissueintheordinarysense.Itsamajorprincipledissueconcerningsafeguardingthecountrysunityorallowingeffortstoseparateacountry.Andwemustadoptatwo-prongedapproachinviewingtheDalaiLama.Ononehand,itistruethattheDalaiisareligiousleader,andheenjoyscertaininfluenceintheTibetanregion,andparticularlyinregionsthattheinhabitantsbelieveinBuddhism.And,ontheotherhand,wemustalsobeawarethatheisnotanordinaryreligiousfigure.Theso-calledgovernmentinexilefoundedbytheDalaiLamapracticesatheocraticrule.Andthepurposeofthisso-calledgovernmentinexileistoseparateTibetfromChina.Inmanyplacesallovertheworld,theDalaiLamakeepspreachingabouttheideaofaso-calledautonomyinthegreaterTibetanregion.Andactually,theso-calledautonomythathepursuesisactuallytousereligiontointerveneinpolitics.Theywanttoseparatetheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionfromthemotherland.AndmanypeopleintheUnitedStateshavenoideahowbigistheso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,theso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,preachedbytheDalaiLama,actuallycoversTibet,Sichuan,Yunnan,QinghaiandGansu--altogetherfiveprovinces.Andtheareacoveredbytheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionaccountsforaquarterofChinasterritory.Fordecades,ourpolicytowardstheDalaiLamaremainsunchanged:thatis,aslongastheDalaiLamaiswillingtorecognizethatTibetisaninalienablepartofChinasterritory,andaslongastheDalaiLamagivesuphisseparatistactivities,werewillingtohavecontactandtalkswithhimorhisrepresentatives.Now,sincerityholdsthekeytoproducingresultoutofthetalks.AftertheTibetincidentbackinthe1950s,thehighestleaderofthecentralgovernment,Mr.DengXiaoping,alsomettherepresentativesoftheDalaiLama.So,Idontthinkthereisthisproblem,aswhetherIcanhavecontactwiththeDalaiLama.Therealkeyliesintheeffectivenessofsuchcontactandtalks.Wehopethathecanuserealactionstoshowsincerityandbreakthedeadlock.Zakaria:WhatactionwouldyouliketoseefromtheDalaiLamathatwouldshowsincerity?WenJiabao:Actually,Ialreadymadeitclearthatwhenweobserveanyindividual,theDalaiLamaincluded,weshouldnotonlywatchwhat,weshouldnotonlyobservewhathesays,butalsowatchwhathedoes.Hissinceritycanbedemonstratedingivingupseparatistactivities.Zakaria:Andthenyoumightmeetwithhim?WenJiabao:Bythen,everythingdependsonthedevelopmentofthesituation.Ofcourse,talksmaycontinue,andinlightoftheprogressinthetalks,wemayalsoconsiderraisingthelevelofthetalks.Zakaria:PremierWen,yourcountryhasgrown,asyoupointedout,9?percentfor30years--fastestgrowthrateofanycountryinhistory.Ifpeoplecometoyouandsaytoyou,WhatistheChinesemodelofsucceedingasadevelopingcountry?Whatwouldyousay?Whatisthekeytoyoursuccess?Whatisthemodel?WenJiabao:Itseasytoanswerthisquestion,thatyoumaythinkaboutthisthing--thatabout30yearsago,whyChinawasnotabletogrowasfastasithasinthefollowingyears.IthinkthisisattributabletothereformsandopeningWenJiabao:AsIsaid,webelievethattheU.S.realeconomyisstillsolidlybased.Particularlythehigh-techindustriesandthebasicindustries.Now,somethinghasgonewronginthevirtualeconomy,butifthisproblemisproperlyaddressed,thenitisstillpossibletostabilizetheeconomyinthiscountry.TheChinesegovernmenthopesverymuchthattheU.S.sidewillbeabletostabilizeitseconomyandfinanceasquicklyaspossible,andwealsohopetoseesustaineddevelopmentintheUnitedStatesasthatwillbenefitChina.Ofcourse,weareconcernedaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesemoneyhere.ButwebelievethattheUnitedStatesisacrediblecountryandparticularlyatsuchdifficulttimes,ChinahasreachedouttotheUnitedStates.idationofforce.Itsliketreatingtherelationshipbetweentwoindividuals.Ifoneindividualtriestocornertheother,thentheeffectwillbecounterproductive.Thatwilldonothinginhelpingresolvetheproblem.Ourpurposeistoresolvetheproblem,nottoescalatetensions.AndIalsohaveaquestionforyou:DontyouthinkthattheeffortsmadebyChinainresolvingtheKoreannuclearissueandpositionwehaveadoptedinthisregardhaveactuallyhelpedthesituationontheKoreanpeninsulamoveforthebetterdaybyday?And,ofcourse,IknowthatitstilltakestimetoseekathoroughandcompletesolutiontotheKoreannuclearissue,andonthatbasistohelpputinplacethesecurityandstabilityinNortheastAsia.But,whatIdliketostressisthatthemodelthatwehaveadopted,andtheeffortswehavemade,provetoberightinthis,inthisdirection.Zakaria:Sinceyouhonoredmebyaskingthequestion,Iwillsaytoyou,premier,thatChinaseffortsinNorthKoreahavebeenappreciatedintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworld.AndofcourseitmakespeoplewishthatChinawouldbeactiveinotherareasinjustthesameproductivewaythatitwasinNorthKoreabecauseweseethatitproducesresults.WenJiabao:Wehavegainedalotofexperienceandlearnedlessonsfromyearsofnegotiationsconcerningthesix-partytalks,andtheprogressmadeinthesix-partytalksalsohasalottodowiththeclosecooperationamongthesixparties.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutanothersetofpossibletalks?TheDalaiLamahassaidnowitappearsthathewouldacceptChinasruleinTibet,heacceptsthesocialistsysteminTibet,andwhatheasksforisculturalautonomyandacertaindegreeofpoliticalautonomy.ThetalksapparentlyarestuckatalowerlevelbetweentheTibetansandtheChinesegovernment.Whydontyou,givenyourpowerandyournegotiatingskills,taketheissueyourself--andyouorPresidentHuJintaowouldnegotiatedirectlywiththeDalaiLamaandsolvethisissueonceandforallforthebenefitoftheChinesepeople,andofcoursetheTibetanpeoplewhoarealsoinChina?WenJiabao:OurissuewiththeDalaiLamaisnotaethnic,religiousorculturalissueintheordinarysense.Itsamajorprincipledissueconcerningsafeguardingthecountrysunityorallowingeffortstoseparateacountry.Andwemustadoptatwo-prongedapproachinviewingtheDalaiLama.Ononehand,itistruethattheDalaiisareligiousleader,andheenjoyscertaininfluenceintheTibetanregion,andparticularlyinregionsthattheinhabitantsbelieveinBuddhism.And,ontheotherhand,wemustalsobeawarethatheisnotanordinaryreligiousfigure.Theso-calledgovernmentinexilefoundedbytheDalaiLamapracticesatheocraticrule.Andthepurposeofthisso-calledgovernmentinexileistoseparateTibetfromChina.Inmanyplacesallovertheworld,theDalaiLamakeepspreachingabouttheideaofaso-calledautonomyinthegreaterTibetanregion.Andactually,theso-calledautonomythathepursuesisactuallytousereligiontointerveneinpolitics.Theywanttoseparatetheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionfromthemotherland.AndmanypeopleintheUnitedStateshavenoideahowbigistheso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,theso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,preachedbytheDalaiLama,actuallycoversTibet,Sichuan,Yunnan,QinghaiandGansu--altogetherfiveprovinces.Andtheareacoveredbytheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionaccountsforaquarterofChinasterritory.Fordecades,ourpolicytowardstheDalaiLamaremainsunchanged:thatis,aslongastheDalaiLamaiswillingtorecognizethatTibetisaninalienablepartofChinasterritory,andaslongastheDalaiLamagivesuphisseparatistactivities,werewillingtohavecontactandtalkswithhimorhisrepresentatives.Now,sincerityholdsthekeytoproducingresultoutofthetalks.AftertheTibetincidentbackinthe1950s,thehighestleaderofthecentralgovernment,Mr.DengXiaoping,alsomettherepresentativesoftheDalaiLama.So,Idontthinkthereisthisproblem,aswhetherIcanhavecontactwiththeDalaiLama.Therealkeyliesintheeffectivenessofsuchcontactandtalks.Wehopethathecanuserealactionstoshowsincerityandbreakthedeadlock.Zakaria:WhatactionwouldyouliketoseefromtheDalaiLamathatwouldshowsincerity?WenJiabao:Actually,Ialreadymadeitclearthatwhenweobserveanyindividual,theDalaiLamaincluded,weshouldnotonlywatchwhat,weshouldnotonlyobservewhathesays,butalsowatchwhathedoes.Hissinceritycanbedemonstratedingivingupseparatistactivities.Zakaria:Andthenyoumightmeetwithhim?WenJiabao:Bythen,everythingdependsonthedevelopmentofthesituation.Ofcourse,talksmaycontinue,andinlightoftheprogressinthetalks,wemayalsoconsiderraisingthelevelofthetalks.Zakaria:PremierWen,yourcountryhasgrown,asyoupointedout,9?percentfor30years--fastestgrowthrateofanycountryinhistory.Ifpeoplecometoyouandsaytoyou,WhatistheChinesemodelofsucceedingasadevelopingcountry?Whatwouldyousay?Whatisthekeytoyoursuccess?Whatisthemodel?WenJiabao:Itseasytoanswerthisquestion,thatyoumaythinkaboutthisthing--thatabout30yearsago,whyChinawasnotabletogrowasfastasithasinthefollowingyears.IthinkthisisattributabletothereformsandopeningAndactuallywebelievesuchahelpinghandwillhelpstabilizetheentireglobaleconomyandfinanceandtopreventamajorchaosfromoccurringintheglobaleconomicandfinancialsystem.Ibelievenowcooperationiseverything.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutChina'sroleinabroadersense?ManypeopleseeChinaasasuperpoweralready,andtheywonder:whyisitnotbeingmoreactiveinpoliticalresolutionofissuessuchastheissueofDarfurortheissueofIrananditsnuclearambitions?upapolicyweintroducedin1978.ThisholdsthekeytoChinassuccess.Byintroducingreformandopeningup,wehavegreatlyemancipatedproductivityinChina.Wehaveoneimportantthought:thatsocialismcanalsopracticemarketeconomy.Zakaria:Peoplethinkthatsacontradiction.Youhavethemarketeconomy,wherethemarketallocatesresources,andinsocialism,itsallcentralplanning.Howdoyoumakebothwork?WenJiabao:Thecompleteformulationofoureconomicpolicyistogivefullplaytothebasicroleofmarketforcesinallocatingresourcesunderthemacroeconomicguidanceandregulationofthegovernment.Wehaveoneimportantpieceofexperienceofthepast30years:thatistoensurethatboththevisiblehandandtheinvisiblehandaregivenfullplayinregulatingthemarketforces.IfyouarefamiliarwiththeclassicalworksofAdamSmith,youwillknowthattherearetwofamousworksofhis.OneisTheWealthofNations;theotheristhebookonthemoralityandethics.And,TheWealthofNationsdealsmorewiththeinvisiblehandthatarethemarketforces.Andtheotherbookdealswithsocialequityandjustice.Andintheotherbookhewrote,hestressedtheimportanceofplayingtheregulatoryroleofthegovernmenttofurtherdistributethewealthamongthepeople.Ifinacountry,mostofthewealthisconcentratedinthehandsofthefew,thenthiscountrycanhardlywitnessharmonyandstability.ThesameapproachalsoappliestothecurrentU.S.economy.Toaddressthecurrenteconomicandfinancialproblemsinthiscountry,weneedtoapplynotonlythevisiblehandbutalsotheinvisiblehand.Zakaria:MayIaskyou--someAmericansandEuropeans,particularlyhumanrightsobservers,saythatChinahascrackeddownonhumanrightsoverthelastfewyears,thattheyhadbeenhopingthattheOlympicswouldleadtoanopeningofChina,butthatithas,therehasbeenmorerepression.Howwouldyourespondtothat?WenJiabao:ByhostingtheOlympicGames,Chinahasactuallybecomemoreopen.Anyonewithoutbiaseswillsee--haveseenthat.InthefreedomofspeechandthefreedominnewsmediacoverageareguaranteedinChina.TheChinesegovernmentattachesimportanceto,andprotects,humanrights.WehaveincorporatedtheselinesintotheChineseconstitution,andwealsoimplementthestipulationinrealearnest.Ithinkforanygovernment,whatismostimportant,istoensurethatitspeopleenjoyeachandeveryrightgiventothembytheconstitution.Includingtheirrighttosurvival,freedomandtopursuetheirhappiness.Wedontthinkthatweareimpeccableintermsofhumanrights.Itistruethatinsomeplacesandinsomeareas,wedohaveproblemsofthiskindorthatkind.Nonetheless,wearecontinuingtomakeeffortstomakeimprovements,andwewanttofurtherimprovehumanrightsinourcountry.Zakaria:WhenIgotoChinaandIminahotelandItypeinthewordsTiananmenSquareinmycomputer,Igetafirewall,whatsomepeoplecalltheGreatFirewallofChina.CanyoubeanadvancedsocietyifyoudonthavefreedomofinformationtofindoutinformationontheInternet?WenJiabao:Chinanowhasover200millionInternetusers,andthefreedomofInternetinChinaisrecognizedbymany,evenfromthewest.Nonetheless,toupholdstatesecurity,China,likemanycountriesintheworld,hasalsoimposedsomeproperrestrictions.Thatisforthesafety,thatisfortheoverallsafetyofthecountryandforthefreedomofthemajorityofthepeople.IcanalsotellyouontheInternetinChina,youcanhaveaccesstoalotofpostingsthatarequitecriticalaboutthegovernment.ItisexactlythroughreadingthesecriticalopinionsontheInternetthatwetrytolocateproblemsandfurtherimproveourwork.Idontthinkasystemoragovernmentshouldfearcriticalopinionsorviews.Onlybyheedingthosecriticalviewswoulditbepossibleforustofurtherimproveourworkandmakefurtherprogress.IfrequentlybrowsetheInternettolearnaboutasituation.Zakaria:Whatareyourfavoritesites?WenJiabao:IvebrowsedalotofInternetWebsites.Zakaria:Iwilltakeadvantageofyourkindnessandaskyouaquestionthatmanypeoplearoundtheworldwonderabout.ThereisaveryfamousphotographofyouatTiananmensquarein1989.Whatlessondidyoutakefromyourexperiencesindealingwiththatproblemin1989?WenJiabao:Ibelievethatwhilemovingaheadwitheconomicreforms,wealsoneedtoadvancepoliticalreforms,asourdevelopmentiscomprehensiveinnature,ourreformshouldalsobecomprehensive.IthinkthecoreofyourquestionisaboutthedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina.IbelievewhenitcomestothedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina,wetalkaboutprogresstobemadeinthreeareas:No.1:WeneedtograduallyimprovethedemocraticelectionsystemsothatstatepowerwilltrulybelongtothepeopleandstatepowerwillbeusedtoservethepeopleNo.2:Weneedtoimprovethelegalsystem,runthecountryaccordingtolaw,andestablishthecountryundertheruleoflawandweneedtoviewanindependentandjustjudicialsystem.No.3:Governmentshouldbesubjecttooversightbythepeopleandthatwillaskus,callonustoincreasetransparencyingovernmentaffairsandparticularlyitisalsonecessaryforgovernmenttoacceptoversightbythenewsmediaandotherparties.ThereisalsoanotherimportantaspectthatwhenitcomestoThereisahopethatChinawillplayaroleasaresponsiblestakeholder,touseRobertZoellick'sphrasewhenhewasdeputysecretaryofstate,andthatChinawillbemoreactiveinmanagingthepoliticalproblemsintheworld,andthatsofarithasnotbeenactive.Howwouldyoureacttothat?WenJiabao:Toanswerthisquestion,Ineedtocorrectsomeoftheelementsinyourquestionfirst.ChinaisNOTasuperpower.AlthoughChinahasapopulationof1.3billionandalthoughinrecentyearsChinahasregisteredfairlyfasteconomicandsocialdevelopmentsincereformandopeningup,developmentofdemocracyinChina,weneedtotakeintoaccountChinasnationalconditions,andweneedtointroduceasystemthatsuitsChinasspecialfeatures,andweneedtointroduceagradualapproach.Zakaria:PeoplesayyourestudyingtheJapanesesystembecausetheresdemocracybuttheresonlyonepartythatseemstowintheelections.IsthatthekindofmodelyouseeforChina?WenJiabao:Ithinktherearemultipleformsofdemocracyintheworld.Whatisimportantisthesubstanceofdemocracy.Whichmeansthatattheendoftheday,whatisimportantaboutdemocracyisthatwhethersuchformofdemocracycanreallyrepresentthecallingandinterestofthepeople.SocialismasIunderstanditisasystemofdemocracy.Withoutdemocracy,thereisnosocialism.Andsuchademocracyfirstandforemostshouldservetoensurepeoplesrighttodemocraticelections,oversightanddecisionmaking.Suchademocracyshouldalsohelppeopletofullydevelopthemselvesinanall-aroundwayinanenvironmentfeaturingfreedomandequality.Andsuchademocracyshouldbebasedonafull-fledgedlegalsystem.Otherwise,therewouldbechaos.Thatswhyweneedtorunthecountryaccordingtolawandensurethateveryoneisequalunderthelaw.Zakaria:Wevetalkedaboutelectionsmanytimes.Doyouthinkin25yearstherewillbenationalelectionsinwhichtherewillbeacompetition,therewillbeperhapstwoparties,thatwillberunningforapositionsuchasyourown?WenJiabao:Itshardformetopredictwhatwillhappenin25yearstime.Thisbeingsaid,Ihavethisconviction--thatChinasdemocracywillcontinuetogrow.In20to30yearstime,thewholeChinesesocietywillbemoredemocraticandfairer,andthelegalsysteminChinawillfurtherbeimproved.Thesocialismasweseeitwillfurthermatureandimprove.Zakaria:Letmeaskyou,premier,finallyacoupleofquestionsthatarepersonal.YouvesaidthatyouvereadtheworksofMarcusAureliusahundredtimes.MarcusAureliusisafamousstoicphilosopher.Myreadingofhimsaysthatoneshouldnotbeinvolvedintheself,andinanykindofpursuitsthatareself-interestedbutshouldbemoreforthecommunityasawhole.WhenIgotoChinathesedays,Iamstruckbyhowmuchindividualismthereis,howmuchconsumerismthereis.AreyoutryingtosendasignaltotheChinesepeopletothinklessaboutthemselvesandmoreaboutthecommunity?WenJiabao:ItistrueIdidreadthemeditationswrittenbyMarcusAureliusAntonioonmanyoccasions,andIwasverydeeplyimpressedbythewordsthathewroteinthebook--tobefact-wherearethosepeoplethatweregreatforatime?Theyareallgone,leavingonlyastory,orsomeevenjusthalfastory.SoIdrawtheconclusionthatonlypeopleareinthepositiontocreatehistoryandwritehistory.Iverymuchvaluemorality,andIdobelievethatentrepreneurs,economistsandstatesmenalikeshouldpaymuchmoreattentiontomoralityandethics.Inmymind,thehigheststandardtomeasuretheethicsandmoralityisjustice.ThatswhyinthemorningwhenIansweredthequestion,IsaidthatIbelieveintheveinsoftheeconomist,weshouldseethebloodofmorality.Whenwethinkabouteconomy,wethinkmoreabouttherealelementsconcerningthecompany,thecapital,themarket,thetechnology,soonandsoforth.Andwemightforgetabouttheothersortofelementsthatworkbehindthescene,andthesefactorsarealsoaffectedbythevisiblefactorslikeconvictionandmorality.Onlywhenwecombinethesetwokindsoffactors,canweputinplaceafullpictureoftheDNAoftheeconomy.ItistrueinthecourseofChinaseconomicdevelopment,somecompanieshaveactuallypursuedtheirprofitsattheexpenseofmoralityandwewillneverallowsuchthingstohappen.Wewillnotalloweconomicgrowthattheexpenseofthelossofmoralitybecausesuchapproachsimplycannotsustain.Thatswhyweadvocatethecorporate,occupationalandsocialethics.Zakaria:Letmeaskyouafinalquestion,yourexcellency.YoumusthavebeenwatchingtheAmericanelection.Whatisyourreactiontothestrangeraceandelectionthatwearehavinginthiscountry?WenJiabao:ThepresidentialelectionoftheUnitedStatesshouldbedecidedbytheAmericanpeople.ButwhatIfollowverycloselyistherelationshipbetweenChinaandtheUnitedStatesaftertheelection.Inrecentyears,therehasbeenasoundgrowthmomentuminthegrowthofChina-U.S.relations.Andwehope,andwhoeveriselectedasthepresidentandwhoeverissworninintotheWhiteHouse,nomatterwhichpartywinstheelection,thatheorsheandthepartieswillcontinuetogrowtherelationshipwithChina.AndChinahopestocontinuetoimproveandgrowitsrelationshipwiththeUnitedStatesnomatterwhowilltakeofficeandleadthenewadministrationinthiscountry.Zakaria:Onthathappynote,Ithankyou,yourexcellency.Imsureyourpeopleareworriedwetookalittleextratime.AndIthankyouinadvanceforyourkindnessandyourfrankness.ChinastillhasthisproblemofunbalanceddevelopmentbetweendifferentregionsandbetweenChina'surbanandruralareas.Chinaremainsadevelopingcountry.Westillhave800millionfarmersinruralareas,andwestillhavedozensofmillionpeoplelivinginpoverty.Asamatteroffact,over60millionpeopleinruralandurbanareasinChinastillliveonallowancesforbasiclivingcostsinmycountry.Andeachyear,weneedtotakecareofabout23millionunemployedinurbanareasandabout200millionfarmerscomeandgotocitiestofindjobsinChina.Weneedtomakecommittedandveryearnesteffortstoaddressalltheseproblems.Toaddressourownproblems,weneedtodoagreatdeal.Chinaisnotasuperpower.That'swhyweneedtofocusonourowndevelopmentandonoureffortstoimprovepeople'slives.idationofforce.Itsliketreatingtherelationshipbetweentwoindividuals.Ifoneindividualtriestocornertheother,thentheeffectwillbecounterproductive.Thatwilldonothinginhelpingresolvetheproblem.Ourpurposeistoresolvetheproblem,nottoescalatetensions.AndIalsohaveaquestionforyou:DontyouthinkthattheeffortsmadebyChinainresolvingtheKoreannuclearissueandpositionwehaveadoptedinthisregardhaveactuallyhelpedthesituationontheKoreanpeninsulamoveforthebetterdaybyday?And,ofcourse,IknowthatitstilltakestimetoseekathoroughandcompletesolutiontotheKoreannuclearissue,andonthatbasistohelpputinplacethesecurityandstabilityinNortheastAsia.But,whatIdliketostressisthatthemodelthatwehaveadopted,andtheeffortswehavemade,provetoberightinthis,inthisdirection.Zakaria:Sinceyouhonoredmebyaskingthequestion,Iwillsaytoyou,premier,thatChinaseffortsinNorthKoreahavebeenappreciatedintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworld.AndofcourseitmakespeoplewishthatChinawouldbeactiveinotherareasinjustthesameproductivewaythatitwasinNorthKoreabecauseweseethatitproducesresults.WenJiabao:Wehavegainedalotofexperienceandlearnedlessonsfromyearsofnegotiationsconcerningthesix-partytalks,andtheprogressmadeinthesix-partytalksalsohasalottodowiththeclosecooperationamongthesixparties.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutanothersetofpossibletalks?TheDalaiLamahassaidnowitappearsthathewouldacceptChinasruleinTibet,heacceptsthesocialistsysteminTibet,andwhatheasksforisculturalautonomyandacertaindegreeofpoliticalautonomy.ThetalksapparentlyarestuckatalowerlevelbetweentheTibetansandtheChinesegovernment.Whydontyou,givenyourpowerandyournegotiatingskills,taketheissueyourself--andyouorPresidentHuJintaowouldnegotiatedirectlywiththeDalaiLamaandsolvethisissueonceandforallforthebenefitoftheChinesepeople,andofcoursetheTibetanpeoplewhoarealsoinChina?WenJiabao:OurissuewiththeDalaiLamaisnotaethnic,religiousorculturalissueintheordinarysense.Itsamajorprincipledissueconcerningsafeguardingthecountrysunityorallowingeffortstoseparateacountry.Andwemustadoptatwo-prongedapproachinviewingtheDalaiLama.Ononehand,itistruethattheDalaiisareligiousleader,andheenjoyscertaininfluenceintheTibetanregion,andparticularlyinregionsthattheinhabitantsbelieveinBuddhism.And,ontheotherhand,wemustalsobeawarethatheisnotanordinaryreligiousfigure.Theso-calledgovernmentinexilefoundedbytheDalaiLamapracticesatheocraticrule.Andthepurposeofthisso-calledgovernmentinexileistoseparateTibetfromChina.Inmanyplacesallovertheworld,theDalaiLamakeepspreachingabouttheideaofaso-calledautonomyinthegreaterTibetanregion.Andactually,theso-calledautonomythathepursuesisactuallytousereligiontointerveneinpolitics.Theywanttoseparatetheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionfromthemotherland.AndmanypeopleintheUnitedStateshavenoideahowbigistheso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,theso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,preachedbytheDalaiLama,actuallycoversTibet,Sichuan,Yunnan,QinghaiandGansu--altogetherfiveprovinces.Andtheareacoveredbytheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionaccountsforaquarterofChinasterritory.Fordecades,ourpolicytowardstheDalaiLamaremainsunchanged:thatis,aslongastheDalaiLamaiswillingtorecognizethatTibetisaninalienablepartofChinasterritory,andaslongastheDalaiLamagivesuphisseparatistactivities,werewillingtohavecontactandtalkswithhimorhisrepresentatives.Now,sincerityholdsthekeytoproducingresultoutofthetalks.AftertheTibetincidentbackinthe1950s,thehighestleaderofthecentralgovernment,Mr.DengXiaoping,alsomettherepresentativesoftheDalaiLama.So,Idontthinkthereisthisproblem,aswhetherIcanhavecontactwiththeDalaiLama.Therealkeyliesintheeffectivenessofsuchcontactandtalks.Wehopethathecanuserealactionstoshowsincerityandbreakthedeadlock.Zakaria:WhatactionwouldyouliketoseefromtheDalaiLamathatwouldshowsincerity?WenJiabao:Actually,Ialreadymadeitclearthatwhenweobserveanyindividual,theDalaiLamaincluded,weshouldnotonlywatchwhat,weshouldnotonlyobservewhathesays,butalsowatchwhathedoes.Hissinceritycanbedemonstratedingivingupseparatistactivities.Zakaria:Andthenyoumightmeetwithhim?WenJiabao:Bythen,everythingdependsonthedevelopmentofthesituation.Ofcourse,talksmaycontinue,andinlightoftheprogressinthetalks,wemayalsoconsiderraisingthelevelofthetalks.Zakaria:PremierWen,yourcountryhasgrown,asyoupointedout,9?percentfor30years--fastestgrowthrateofanycountryinhistory.Ifpeoplecometoyouandsaytoyou,WhatistheChinesemodelofsucceedingasadevelopingcountry?Whatwouldyousay?Whatisthekeytoyoursuccess?Whatisthemodel?WenJiabao:Itseasytoanswerthisquestion,thatyoumaythinkaboutthisthing--thatabout30yearsago,whyChinawasnotabletogrowasfastasithasinthefollowingyears.IthinkthisisattributabletothereformsandopeningZakaria:ButsurelytheChinesegovernmentcouldpressuretheSudanesegovernmentortheIraniangovernmentorthegovernmentinBurmatobelessrepressive.Youhaverelationswithallthreeofthem.从雪山上下来&#;看大家都在谈论温总接受cnn访问的内容&#;这是上个月23日在纽约缺席联合国大会的时候做的&#;当时的访问超过了预定的时间。不过看了视频&#;和两年前一样&#;CNN没有使用原声加字幕的方法&#;而是直接使用了翻译的声音&#;也因为这样&#;现在大家使用的中文版本&#;其实是从英文翻译过来&#;也就是说&#;和温总的原话&#;字面上肯定会有一些差异&#;甚至是含意。因为中文有意思的地方&#;就是一个词&#;一个字&#;都会让不同人产生不同的理解。札卡利亚&#;FareedZakaria&#;在08年就采访过温总&#;而且凑巧的是&#;都是在9月23日。如果看提问的问题&#;都是以美国经济开始&#;都谈到了网络自由&#;也谈到了政治体制改革&#;当时温从三方面谈如何在中国推动民主进程。正如他在这次所说&#;两年的时间&#;他对于这个话题相得更多&#;也更加清晰&#;谈论政改的一部门表达&#;在他见华文媒体的时候已经说过。不过当时的访问并没有像这次&#;在中国的网络上引发太多关注。不如大家再看看08年的。BelowisthecompletetranscriptofFareedZakariasinterviewwithChinesePremierWenJiabao.TheinterviewwastapedSeptember23,andportionswereshownonFareedZakariaGPSonSeptember28.以下的内容是在2008年9月23日采访&#;2008年9月28日播出。Zakaria:Wearenowbeginningtheformalinterview,justsoeveryonerealizes.WenJiabao:Beforewebegin,IwouldliketoletyouknowthatIwillusethewordsfromthebottomofmyhearttoansweryourquestions,whichmeansthatIwilltellthetruthtoallyourquestions.IalwaystellpeoplethatsometimesImaynottellwhatisonmymind,thataslongasIspeakoutwhatisonmymind,thewordsaretrue.Ithinkyouarenowinterviewingastatesman,andatthesametimeyouareinterviewingastatesmaninhiscapacityasacommonpeople.Ipreferdialoguetolong-windedspeeches,soyoucanalwaysinterruptmeandraiseyourquestions.Thatwouldcertainlymakeourdialoguemorelively.Zakaria:Ilookforwardtothechanceforthisdialogue,andIbeginbythankingyouforgivingustheopportunityandthehonor.ThefirstthingIhavetoaskyou,Ithinkisonmanypeoplesminds.WhatdoyouthinkofthecurrentfinancialcrisisaffectingtheUnitedStates,anddoesitmakeyouthinkthattheAmericanmodelhasmanyflawsinitthatwearejustrecognizingnow?WenJiabao:ItookofficeastheChinesepremiersixyearsago,andbeforethenIwasservingasthevicepremierofthecountry.WhenIwasthevicepremier,IexperiencedanotherfinancialcrisisbutinAsia.AndinwakeoftheAsianfinancialcrisis,ChinaadoptedaproactivefiscalpolicyanddecidednottodevaluetheRMB,theChinesecurrency,butdoingsowemanagedtoovercomethedifficulties.ButnowtheproblemsintheUnitedStatesstartedwiththesubprimecrisisandlateron,FannieMaeandFreddieMacwereinvolvedintheproblems,andtheLehmanBrotherswasintrouble,MerrillLynchwasintrouble,theAIGwasintrouble,andsuchlargeinvestmentbankingcompaniesandinsurancecompaniesallencounteredsystematicproblems.AndthishasmademefeelthatthistimethecrisisthatoccurredintheUnitedStatesmayhaveanimpactthatwillaffectthewholeworld.Nonetheless,infaceofsuchacrisis,wemustalsobeawarethattodaysworldisdifferentfromtheworldthatpeoplelivedinbackinthe1930s.Sothistimeweshouldjoinhandsandmeetthecrisistogether.IfthefinancialandeconomicsystemintheUnitedStatesgowrong,thentheimpactwillbefelt,notonlyinthiscountrybutalsoinChina,inAsiaandintheworldatlarge.IhavenotedahostofpoliciesandmeasuresadoptedbytheU.S.governmenttopreventanisolatedcrisisfrombecomingasystematicone,andIhopethatmeasuresandstepstheyhaveadoptedwillpayoff.IalsohopethatthesemeasuresandstepswillnotonlysavesomemajorU.S.financialcompaniesbutalsohelpstabilizetheU.S.economyandensurethattheU.S.economywillgrowonabalancedcourse.Zakaria:Whenyoulookatyourowneconomy,asyouknow,therearemanypeoplewhonowsaytherewillbeasignificantslowdownoftheChineseeconomy.TherearepeoplepredictingthatChinesegrowthratesmayslowtoasmuchas7percent.Doyouthinkthatwillhappen?Andifitdoes,Iwonder,whatdoyouthinktheconsequenceswillbeinChina?WenJiabao:Yes,indeed.Chinaseconomyhasbeengrowingatanannualaveragerateof9.6percentfor30yearsrunning.Thisisamiracle.Particularlybetweentheyear2003and2007,Chinahadenjoyedadouble-digitgrowthforitseconomy,andatthesametimetheCPIgrewinforlessthan2percentayear.ItisfairtosaythatChinahasachievedafairlyfastandsteadyeconomicgrowth.Thistime,Chinahasbeenproactiveinadoptingregulatorymeasures.Ourpreviousconsiderationsweretopreventafast-growingeconomyfrombecomingoverheatedandtopreventthefastersoaringpricesfrombecomingobviousinflation.Butthingshavechangedveryfast,andIrefertothesub-primecrisisintheUnitedStatesandtheseriousfinancialturbulencesthatfollowthesub-primecrisis.Andasaresult,wehaveseenadeclineinexternaldemand,andChinasdomesticdemandcanhardlybeincreasedinaverysignificantmannerinashortperiodoftime.Inthiscase,itistruethatwedohavethisriskofaslowdownintheChineseeconomy.Inthiscontext,wemustre-adjustthemacroeconomicpolicyinChinainordertoadaptourselvestoexternalchanges.Whatismostimportantisforustostrikeabalancebetweeneconomicgrowth,dampeningthepricerisesandbringinginflationundercontrol.AndtostrikeabalancebetweenjobcreationanddampeninginflationandIknowitsvery,verydifficulttostrikeabalanceinallthoseareas.Weneedtoadoptaflexibleandprudentmacroeconomicpolicytoadapttoexternalchangesinordertoensureveryfastandsteadyeconomicgrowthandatthesametimekeepinginflationdown.Zakaria:DoyouthinkyoucancontinuetogrowiftheUnitedStatesgoesintoamajorrecession?WenJiabao:WenJiabao:Thatbringsmetoyoursecondquestion.Actuallyintheinternationalcommunity,Chinaisajustice-upholdingcountry.Wenevertradeourprinciples.TaketheDarfurissuethatyouraisedjustnowforexample.Chinahasalwaysadvocatedthatweneedtoadoptadual-trackapproachtoseekasolutiontotheDarfurissue.Chinawasamongthefirstcountriessendingpeace-keeperstoDarfur.ChinawasalsothefirstcountrythatgaveassistancetoSudanandwealsokeepoureffortstoengagetheleadersinSudantotrytoseekapeacefulsolutiontotheissueasquicklyaspossible.developmentofdemocracyinChina,weneedtotakeintoaccountChinasnationalconditions,andweneedtointroduceasystemthatsuitsChinasspecialfeatures,andweneedtointroduceagradualapproach.Zakaria:PeoplesayyourestudyingtheJapanesesystembecausetheresdemocracybuttheresonlyonepartythatseemstowintheelections.IsthatthekindofmodelyouseeforChina?WenJiabao:Ithinktherearemultipleformsofdemocracyintheworld.Whatisimportantisthesubstanceofdemocracy.Whichmeansthatattheendoftheday,whatisimportantaboutdemocracyisthatwhethersuchformofdemocracycanreallyrepresentthecallingandinterestofthepeople.SocialismasIunderstanditisasystemofdemocracy.Withoutdemocracy,thereisnosocialism.Andsuchademocracyfirstandforemostshouldservetoensurepeoplesrighttodemocraticelections,oversightanddecisionmaking.Suchademocracyshouldalsohelppeopletofullydevelopthemselvesinanall-aroundwayinanenvironmentfeaturingfreedomandequality.Andsuchademocracyshouldbebasedonafull-fledgedlegalsystem.Otherwise,therewouldbechaos.Thatswhyweneedtorunthecountryaccordingtolawandensurethateveryoneisequalunderthelaw.Zakaria:Wevetalkedaboutelectionsmanytimes.Doyouthinkin25yearstherewillbenationalelectionsinwhichtherewillbeacompetition,therewillbeperhapstwoparties,thatwillberunningforapositionsuchasyourown?WenJiabao:Itshardformetopredictwhatwillhappenin25yearstime.Thisbeingsaid,Ihavethisconviction--thatChinasdemocracywillcontinuetogrow.In20to30yearstime,thewholeChinesesocietywillbemoredemocraticandfairer,andthelegalsysteminChinawillfurtherbeimproved.Thesocialismasweseeitwillfurthermatureandimprove.Zakaria:Letmeaskyou,premier,finallyacoupleofquestionsthatarepersonal.YouvesaidthatyouvereadtheworksofMarcusAureliusahundredtimes.MarcusAureliusisafamousstoicphilosopher.Myreadingofhimsaysthatoneshouldnotbeinvolvedintheself,andinanykindofpursuitsthatareself-interestedbutshouldbemoreforthecommunityasawhole.WhenIgotoChinathesedays,Iamstruckbyhowmuchindividualismthereis,howmuchconsumerismthereis.AreyoutryingtosendasignaltotheChinesepeopletothinklessaboutthemselvesandmoreaboutthecommunity?WenJiabao:ItistrueIdidreadthemeditationswrittenbyMarcusAureliusAntonioonmanyoccasions,andIwasverydeeplyimpressedbythewordsthathewroteinthebook--tobefact-wherearethosepeoplethatweregreatforatime?Theyareallgone,leavingonlyastory,orsomeevenjusthalfastory.SoIdrawtheconclusionthatonlypeopleareinthepositiontocreatehistoryandwritehistory.Iverymuchvaluemorality,andIdobelievethatentrepreneurs,economistsandstatesmenalikeshouldpaymuchmoreattentiontomoralityandethics.Inmymind,thehigheststandardtomeasuretheethicsandmoralityisjustice.ThatswhyinthemorningwhenIansweredthequestion,IsaidthatIbelieveintheveinsoftheeconomist,weshouldseethebloodofmorality.Whenwethinkabouteconomy,wethinkmoreabouttherealelementsconcerningthecompany,thecapital,themarket,thetechnology,soonandsoforth.Andwemightforgetabouttheothersortofelementsthatworkbehindthescene,andthesefactorsarealsoaffectedbythevisiblefactorslikeconvictionandmorality.Onlywhenwecombinethesetwokindsoffactors,canweputinplaceafullpictureoftheDNAoftheeconomy.ItistrueinthecourseofChinaseconomicdevelopment,somecompanieshaveactuallypursuedtheirprofitsattheexpenseofmoralityandwewillneverallowsuchthingstohappen.Wewillnotalloweconomicgrowthattheexpenseofthelossofmoralitybecausesuchapproachsimplycannotsustain.Thatswhyweadvocatethecorporate,occupationalandsocialethics.Zakaria:Letmeaskyouafinalquestion,yourexcellency.YoumusthavebeenwatchingtheAmericanelection.Whatisyourreactiontothestrangeraceandelectionthatwearehavinginthiscountry?WenJiabao:ThepresidentialelectionoftheUnitedStatesshouldbedecidedbytheAmericanpeople.ButwhatIfollowverycloselyistherelationshipbetweenChinaandtheUnitedStatesaftertheelection.Inrecentyears,therehasbeenasoundgrowthmomentuminthegrowthofChina-U.S.relations.Andwehope,andwhoeveriselectedasthepresidentandwhoeverissworninintotheWhiteHouse,nomatterwhichpartywinstheelection,thatheorsheandthepartieswillcontinuetogrowtherelationshipwithChina.AndChinahopestocontinuetoimproveandgrowitsrelationshipwiththeUnitedStatesnomatterwhowilltakeofficeandleadthenewadministrationinthiscountry.Zakaria:Onthathappynote,Ithankyou,yourexcellency.Imsureyourpeopleareworriedwetookalittleextratime.AndIthankyouinadvanceforyourkindnessandyourfrankness.Zakaria:DoyouthinkitwouldbedangerousfortheworldifIrangotnuclearweapons?Andwhatdoyouthinktheworldshoulddototrytostopthatpossibility?developmentofdemocracyinChina,weneedtotakeintoaccountChinasnationalconditions,andweneedtointroduceasystemthatsuitsChinasspecialfeatures,andweneedtointroduceagradualapproach.Zakaria:PeoplesayyourestudyingtheJapanesesystembecausetheresdemocracybuttheresonlyonepartythatseemstowintheelections.IsthatthekindofmodelyouseeforChina?WenJiabao:Ithinktherearemultipleformsofdemocracyintheworld.Whatisimportantisthesubstanceofdemocracy.Whichmeansthatattheendoftheday,whatisimportantaboutdemocracyisthatwhethersuchformofdemocracycanreallyrepresentthecallingandinterestofthepeople.SocialismasIunderstanditisasystemofdemocracy.Withoutdemocracy,thereisnosocialism.Andsuchademocracyfirstandforemostshouldservetoensurepeoplesrighttodemocraticelections,oversightanddecisionmaking.Suchademocracyshouldalsohelppeopletofullydevelopthemselvesinanall-aroundwayinanenvironmentfeaturingfreedomandequality.Andsuchademocracyshouldbebasedonafull-fledgedlegalsystem.Otherwise,therewouldbechaos.Thatswhyweneedtorunthecountryaccordingtolawandensurethateveryoneisequalunderthelaw.Zakaria:Wevetalkedaboutelectionsmanytimes.Doyouthinkin25yearstherewillbenationalelectionsinwhichtherewillbeacompetition,therewillbeperhapstwoparties,thatwillberunningforapositionsuchasyourown?WenJiabao:Itshardformetopredictwhatwillhappenin25yearstime.Thisbeingsaid,Ihavethisconviction--thatChinasdemocracywillcontinuetogrow.In20to30yearstime,thewholeChinesesocietywillbemoredemocraticandfairer,andthelegalsysteminChinawillfurtherbeimproved.Thesocialismasweseeitwillfurthermatureandimprove.Zakaria:Letmeaskyou,premier,finallyacoupleofquestionsthatarepersonal.YouvesaidthatyouvereadtheworksofMarcusAureliusahundredtimes.MarcusAureliusisafamousstoicphilosopher.Myreadingofhimsaysthatoneshouldnotbeinvolvedintheself,andinanykindofpursuitsthatareself-interestedbutshouldbemoreforthecommunityasawhole.WhenIgotoChinathesedays,Iamstruckbyhowmuchindividualismthereis,howmuchconsumerismthereis.AreyoutryingtosendasignaltotheChinesepeopletothinklessaboutthemselvesandmoreaboutthecommunity?WenJiabao:ItistrueIdidreadthemeditationswrittenbyMarcusAureliusAntonioonmanyoccasions,andIwasverydeeplyimpressedbythewordsthathewroteinthebook--tobefact-wherearethosepeoplethatweregreatforatime?Theyareallgone,leavingonlyastory,orsomeevenjusthalfastory.SoIdrawtheconclusionthatonlypeopleareinthepositiontocreatehistoryandwritehistory.Iverymuchvaluemorality,andIdobelievethatentrepreneurs,economistsandstatesmenalikeshouldpaymuchmoreattentiontomoralityandethics.Inmymind,thehigheststandardtomeasuretheethicsandmoralityisjustice.ThatswhyinthemorningwhenIansweredthequestion,IsaidthatIbelieveintheveinsoftheeconomist,weshouldseethebloodofmorality.Whenwethinkabouteconomy,wethinkmoreabouttherealelementsconcerningthecompany,thecapital,themarket,thetechnology,soonandsoforth.Andwemightforgetabouttheothersortofelementsthatworkbehindthescene,andthesefactorsarealsoaffectedbythevisiblefactorslikeconvictionandmorality.Onlywhenwecombinethesetwokindsoffactors,canweputinplaceafullpictureoftheDNAoftheeconomy.ItistrueinthecourseofChinaseconomicdevelopment,somecompanieshaveactuallypursuedtheirprofitsattheexpenseofmoralityandwewillneverallowsuchthingstohappen.Wewillnotalloweconomicgrowthattheexpenseofthelossofmoralitybecausesuchapproachsimplycannotsustain.Thatswhyweadvocatethecorporate,occupationalandsocialethics.Zakaria:Letmeaskyouafinalquestion,yourexcellency.YoumusthavebeenwatchingtheAmericanelection.Whatisyourreactiontothestrangeraceandelectionthatwearehavinginthiscountry?WenJiabao:ThepresidentialelectionoftheUnitedStatesshouldbedecidedbytheAmericanpeople.ButwhatIfollowverycloselyistherelationshipbetweenChinaandtheUnitedStatesaftertheelection.Inrecentyears,therehasbeenasoundgrowthmomentuminthegrowthofChina-U.S.relations.Andwehope,andwhoeveriselectedasthepresidentandwhoeverissworninintotheWhiteHouse,nomatterwhichpartywinstheelection,thatheorsheandthepartieswillcontinuetogrowtherelationshipwithChina.AndChinahopestocontinuetoimproveandgrowitsrelationshipwiththeUnitedStatesnomatterwhowilltakeofficeandleadthenewadministrationinthiscountry.Zakaria:Onthathappynote,Ithankyou,yourexcellency.Imsureyourpeopleareworriedwetookalittleextratime.AndIthankyouinadvanceforyourkindnessandyourfrankness.WenJiabao:WearenotsupportiveofanuclearrisetoIran.WebelievethatIranhastherighttodevelopautilizationofnuclearenergyinapeacefulway.Butsucheffortsshouldbesubjecttothesafeguardsofthe[InternationalAtomicEnergyAgency],andIranshouldnotdevelopnuclearweapons.AsfarastheIraniannuclearissueisconcerned,China'sstanceisclear-cut.Wehopethatthroughpromotingthetalksconcerningthisissue,thatwewillbeabletoencouragetheIranianauthoritiestogiveupanyideatodevelopnuclearweaponsandacceptIAEAsafeguards.Nonetheless,wehopethatwecanusepeacefultalkstoachievethepurpose,ratherthanresorttothewillfuluseofforceortheintimidationofforce.It'sliketreatingtherelationshipbetweentwoindividuals.Ifoneindividualtriestocornertheother,thentheeffectwillbecounterproductive.Thatwilldonothinginhelpingresolvetheproblem.Ourpurposeistoresolvetheproblem,nottoescalatetensions.developmentofdemocracyinChina,weneedtotakeintoaccountChinasnationalconditions,andweneedtointroduceasystemthatsuitsChinasspecialfeatures,andweneedtointroduceagradualapproach.Zakaria:PeoplesayyourestudyingtheJapanesesystembecausetheresdemocracybuttheresonlyonepartythatseemstowintheelections.IsthatthekindofmodelyouseeforChina?WenJiabao:Ithinktherearemultipleformsofdemocracyintheworld.Whatisimportantisthesubstanceofdemocracy.Whichmeansthatattheendoftheday,whatisimportantaboutdemocracyisthatwhethersuchformofdemocracycanreallyrepresentthecallingandinterestofthepeople.SocialismasIunderstanditisasystemofdemocracy.Withoutdemocracy,thereisnosocialism.Andsuchademocracyfirstandforemostshouldservetoensurepeoplesrighttodemocraticelections,oversightanddecisionmaking.Suchademocracyshouldalsohelppeopletofullydevelopthemselvesinanall-aroundwayinanenvironmentfeaturingfreedomandequality.Andsuchademocracyshouldbebasedonafull-fledgedlegalsystem.Otherwise,therewouldbechaos.Thatswhyweneedtorunthecountryaccordingtolawandensurethateveryoneisequalunderthelaw.Zakaria:Wevetalkedaboutelectionsmanytimes.Doyouthinkin25yearstherewillbenationalelectionsinwhichtherewillbeacompetition,therewillbeperhapstwoparties,thatwillberunningforapositionsuchasyourown?WenJiabao:Itshardformetopredictwhatwillhappenin25yearstime.Thisbeingsaid,Ihavethisconviction--thatChinasdemocracywillcontinuetogrow.In20to30yearstime,thewholeChinesesocietywillbemoredemocraticandfairer,andthelegalsysteminChinawillfurtherbeimproved.Thesocialismasweseeitwillfurthermatureandimprove.Zakaria:Letmeaskyou,premier,finallyacoupleofquestionsthatarepersonal.YouvesaidthatyouvereadtheworksofMarcusAureliusahundredtimes.MarcusAureliusisafamousstoicphilosopher.Myreadingofhimsaysthatoneshouldnotbeinvolvedintheself,andinanykindofpursuitsthatareself-interestedbutshouldbemoreforthecommunityasawhole.WhenIgotoChinathesedays,Iamstruckbyhowmuchindividualismthereis,howmuchconsumerismthereis.AreyoutryingtosendasignaltotheChinesepeopletothinklessaboutthemselvesandmoreaboutthecommunity?WenJiabao:ItistrueIdidreadthemeditationswrittenbyMarcusAureliusAntonioonmanyoccasions,andIwasverydeeplyimpressedbythewordsthathewroteinthebook--tobefact-wherearethosepeoplethatweregreatforatime?Theyareallgone,leavingonlyastory,orsomeevenjusthalfastory.SoIdrawtheconclusionthatonlypeopleareinthepositiontocreatehistoryandwritehistory.Iverymuchvaluemorality,andIdobelievethatentrepreneurs,economistsandstatesmenalikeshouldpaymuchmoreattentiontomoralityandethics.Inmymind,thehigheststandardtomeasuretheethicsandmoralityisjustice.ThatswhyinthemorningwhenIansweredthequestion,IsaidthatIbelieveintheveinsoftheeconomist,weshouldseethebloodofmorality.Whenwethinkabouteconomy,wethinkmoreabouttherealelementsconcerningthecompany,thecapital,themarket,thetechnology,soonandsoforth.Andwemightforgetabouttheothersortofelementsthatworkbehindthescene,andthesefactorsarealsoaffectedbythevisiblefactorslikeconvictionandmorality.Onlywhenwecombinethesetwokindsoffactors,canweputinplaceafullpictureoftheDNAoftheeconomy.ItistrueinthecourseofChinaseconomicdevelopment,somecompanieshaveactuallypursuedtheirprofitsattheexpenseofmoralityandwewillneverallowsuchthingstohappen.Wewillnotalloweconomicgrowthattheexpenseofthelossofmoralitybecausesuchapproachsimplycannotsustain.Thatswhyweadvocatethecorporate,occupationalandsocialethics.Zakaria:Letmeaskyouafinalquestion,yourexcellency.YoumusthavebeenwatchingtheAmericanelection.Whatisyourreactiontothestrangeraceandelectionthatwearehavinginthiscountry?WenJiabao:ThepresidentialelectionoftheUnitedStatesshouldbedecidedbytheAmericanpeople.ButwhatIfollowverycloselyistherelationshipbetweenChinaandtheUnitedStatesaftertheelection.Inrecentyears,therehasbeenasoundgrowthmomentuminthegrowthofChina-U.S.relations.Andwehope,andwhoeveriselectedasthepresidentandwhoeverissworninintotheWhiteHouse,nomatterwhichpartywinstheelection,thatheorsheandthepartieswillcontinuetogrowtherelationshipwithChina.AndChinahopestocontinuetoimproveandgrowitsrelationshipwiththeUnitedStatesnomatterwhowilltakeofficeandleadthenewadministrationinthiscountry.Zakaria:Onthathappynote,Ithankyou,yourexcellency.Imsureyourpeopleareworriedwetookalittleextratime.AndIthankyouinadvanceforyourkindnessandyourfrankness.AndIalsohaveaquestionforyou:Don'tyouthinkthattheeffortsmadebyChinainresolvingtheKoreannuclearissueandpositionwehaveadoptedinthisregardhaveactuallyhelpedthesituationontheKoreanpeninsulamoveforthebetterdaybyday?And,ofcourse,IknowthatitstilltakestimetoseekathoroughandcompletesolutiontotheKoreannuclearissue,andonthatbasistohelpputinplacethesecurityandstabilityinNortheastAsia.But,whatI'dliketostressisthatthemodelthatwehaveadopted,andtheeffortswehavemade,provetoberightinthis,inthisdirection.Zakaria:Sinceyouhonoredmebyaskingthequestion,Iwillsaytoyou,premier,thatChina'seffortsinNorthKoreahavebeenappreciatedintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworld.AndofcourseitmakespeoplewishthatChinawouldbeactiveinotherareasinjustthesameproductivewaythatitwasinNorthKoreabecauseweseethatitproducesresults.从雪山上下来&#;看大家都在谈论温总接收cnn访问的内容&#;这是上个月23日在纽约出席联合国大会的时候做的&#;当时的访问超过了预定的时间。不过看了视频&#;和两年前一样&#;CNN没有使用原声加字幕的办法&#;而是直接使用了翻译的声音&#;也因为这样&#;现在大家使用的中文版本&#;其实是从英文翻译过来&#;也就是说&#;和温总的原话&#;字面上肯定会有一些差异&#;甚至是含义。因为中文有意思的处所&#;就是一个词&#;一个字&#;都会让不同人产生不同的理解。札卡利亚&#;FareedZakaria&#;在08年就采访过温总&#;而且凑巧的是&#;都是在9月23日。如果看提问的问题&#;都是以美国经济开始&#;都谈到了网络自由&#;也谈到了政治体制改革&#;当时温从三方面谈如何在中国推动民主进程。正如他在这次所说&#;两年的时间&#;他对于这个话题相得更多&#;也更加清晰&#;谈论政改的一部分表达&#;在他见华文媒体的时候已经说过。不过当时的访问并没有像这次&#;在中国的网络上引发太多关注。不如大家再看看08年的。BelowisthecompletetranscriptofFareedZakariasinterviewwithChinesePremierWenJiabao.TheinterviewwastapedSeptember23,andportionswereshownonFareedZakariaGPSonSeptember28.以下的内容是在2008年9月23日采访&#;2008年9月28日播出。Zakaria:Wearenowbeginningtheformalinterview,justsoeveryonerealizes.WenJiabao:Beforewebegin,IwouldliketoletyouknowthatIwillusethewordsfromthebottomofmyhearttoansweryourquestions,whichmeansthatIwilltellthetruthtoallyourquestions.IalwaystellpeoplethatsometimesImaynottellwhatisonmymind,thataslongasIspeakoutwhatisonmymind,thewordsaretrue.Ithinkyouarenowinterviewingastatesman,andatthesametimeyouareinterviewingastatesmaninhiscapacityasacommonpeople.Ipreferdialoguetolong-windedspeeches,soyoucanalwaysinterruptmeandraiseyourquestions.Thatwouldcertainlymakeourdialoguemorelively.Zakaria:Ilookforwardtothechanceforthisdialogue,andIbeginbythankingyouforgivingustheopportunityandthehonor.ThefirstthingIhavetoaskyou,Ithinkisonmanypeoplesminds.WhatdoyouthinkofthecurrentfinancialcrisisaffectingtheUnitedStates,anddoesitmakeyouthinkthattheAmericanmodelhasmanyflawsinitthatwearejustrecognizingnow?WenJiabao:ItookofficeastheChinesepremiersixyearsago,andbeforethenIwasservingasthevicepremierofthecountry.WhenIwasthevicepremier,IexperiencedanotherfinancialcrisisbutinAsia.AndinwakeoftheAsianfinancialcrisis,ChinaadoptedaproactivefiscalpolicyanddecidednottodevaluetheRMB,theChinesecurrency,butdoingsowemanagedtoovercomethedifficulties.ButnowtheproblemsintheUnitedStatesstartedwiththesubprimecrisisandlateron,FannieMaeandFreddieMacwereinvolvedintheproblems,andtheLehmanBrotherswasintrouble,MerrillLynchwasintrouble,theAIGwasintrouble,andsuchlargeinvestmentbankingcompaniesandinsurancecompaniesallencounteredsystematicproblems.AndthishasmademefeelthatthistimethecrisisthatoccurredintheUnitedStatesmayhaveanimpactthatwillaffectthewholeworld.Nonetheless,infaceofsuchacrisis,wemustalsobeawarethattodaysworldisdifferentfromtheworldthatpeoplelivedinbackinthe1930s.Sothistimeweshouldjoinhandsandmeetthecrisistogether.IfthefinancialandeconomicsystemintheUnitedStatesgowrong,thentheimpactwillbefelt,notonlyinthiscountrybutalsoinChina,inAsiaandintheworldatlarge.IhavenotedahostofpoliciesandmeasuresadoptedbytheU.S.governmenttopreventanisolatedcrisisfrombecomingasystematicone,andIhopethatmeasuresandstepstheyhaveadoptedwillpayoff.IalsohopethatthesemeasuresandstepswillnotonlysavesomemajorU.S.financialcompaniesbutalsohelpstabilizetheU.S.economyandensurethattheU.S.economywillgrowonabalancedcourse.Zakaria:Whenyoulookatyourowneconomy,asyouknow,therearemanypeoplewhonowsaytherewillbeasignificantslowdownoftheChineseeconomy.TherearepeoplepredictingthatChinesegrowthratesmayslowtoasmuchas7percent.Doyouthinkthatwillhappen?Andifitdoes,Iwonder,whatdoyouthinktheconsequenceswillbeinChina?WenJiabao:Yes,indeed.Chinaseconomyhasbeengrowingatanannualaveragerateof9.6percentfor30yearsrunning.Thisisamiracle.Particularlybetweentheyear2003and2007,Chinahadenjoyedadouble-digitgrowthforitseconomy,andatthesametimetheCPIgrewinforlessthan2percentayear.ItisfairtosaythatChinahasachievedafairlyfastandsteadyeconomicgrowth.Thistime,Chinahasbeenproactiveinadoptingregulatorymeasures.Ourpreviousconsiderationsweretopreventafast-growingeconomyfrombecomingoverheatedandtopreventthefastersoaringpricesfrombecomingobviousinflation.Butthingshavechangedveryfast,andIrefertothesub-primecrisisintheUnitedStatesandtheseriousfinancialturbulencesthatfollowthesub-primecrisis.Andasaresult,wehaveseenadeclineinexternaldemand,andChinasdomesticdemandcanhardlybeincreasedinaverysignificantmannerinashortperiodoftime.Inthiscase,itistruethatwedohavethisriskofaslowdownintheChineseeconomy.Inthiscontext,wemustre-adjustthemacroeconomicpolicyinChinainordertoadaptourselvestoexternalchanges.Whatismostimportantisforustostrikeabalancebetweeneconomicgrowth,dampeningthepricerisesandbringinginflationundercontrol.AndtostrikeabalancebetweenjobcreationanddampeninginflationandIknowitsvery,verydifficulttostrikeabalanceinallthoseareas.Weneedtoadoptaflexibleandprudentmacroeconomicpolicytoadapttoexternalchangesinordertoensureveryfastandsteadyeconomicgrowthandatthesametimekeepinginflationdown.Zakaria:DoyouthinkyoucancontinuetogrowiftheUnitedStatesgoesintoamajorrecession?WenJiabao:WenJiabao:Wehavegainedalotofexperienceandlearnedlessonsfromyearsofnegotiationsconcerningthesix-partytalks,andtheprogressmadeinthesix-partytalksalsohasalottodowiththeclosecooperationamongthesixparties.Inthefirsthalfofthisyear,orgiventhestatisticsforthefirsteightmonthsofthisyear,wecanseethatwehavemanagedtodothat.ApossibleU.S.economicrecessionwillcertainlyhaveanimpactontheChinaeconomy.Asweknowthat10yearsago,theChina-U.S.tradevolumestoodatonly$102.6billionU.S.,whiletodaythefiguressoarto$302billionU.S.,actuallyrepresentinganincreaseof1.5-fold.AshrinkingofU.S.demandwillcertainlyhaveanimpactonChinasexport.AndtheU.S.financeiscloselyconnectedwiththeChinesefinance.IfanythinggoeswrongintheU.S.financialsector,weareanxiousaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesecapital.ThatswhyintheverybeginningIhavemadeitclearthatthefinancialproblemsinthiscountrynotonlyconcernstheinterestsoftheUnitedStatesbutalsothatofChinaandtheworldatlarge.Zakaria:Thereisanothersenseinwhichweareinterdependent.ChinaisthelargestholderofU.S.Treasurybills.Bysomeaccounts,theyreworthalmost$1trillion.ItmakessomeAmericansuneasy.CanyoureassurethemthatChinawouldneverusethisstatusasaweaponinsomeway?WenJiabao:AsIsaid,webelievethattheU.S.realeconomyisstillsolidlybased.Particularlythehigh-techindustriesandthebasicindustries.Now,somethinghasgonewronginthevirtualeconomy,butifthisproblemisproperlyaddressed,thenitisstillpossibletostabilizetheeconomyinthiscountry.TheChinesegovernmenthopesverymuchthattheU.S.sidewillbeabletostabilizeitseconomyandfinanceasquicklyaspossible,andwealsohopetoseesustaineddevelopmentintheUnitedStatesasthatwillbenefitChina.Ofcourse,weareconcernedaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesemoneyhere.ButwebelievethattheUnitedStatesisacrediblecountryandparticularlyatsuchdifficulttimes,ChinahasreachedouttotheUnitedStates.Andactuallywebelievesuchahelpinghandwillhelpstabilizetheentireglobaleconomyandfinanceandtopreventamajorchaosfromoccurringintheglobaleconomicandfinancialsystem.Ibelievenowcooperationiseverything.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutChinasroleinabroadersense?ManypeopleseeChinaasasuperpoweralready,andtheywonder:whyisitnotbeingmoreactiveinpoliticalresolutionofissuessuchastheissueofDarfurortheissueofIrananditsnuclearambitions?ThereisahopethatChinawillplayaroleasaresponsiblestakeholder,touseRobertZoellicksphrasewhenhewasdeputysecretaryofstate,andthatChinawillbemoreactiveinmanagingthepoliticalproblemsintheworld,andthatsofarithasnotbeenactive.Howwouldyoureacttothat?WenJiabao:Toanswerthisquestion,Ineedtocorrectsomeoftheelementsinyourquestionfirst.ChinaisNOTasuperpower.AlthoughChinahasapopulationof1.3billionandalthoughinrecentyearsChinahasregisteredfairlyfasteconomicandsocialdevelopmentsincereformandopeningup,ChinastillhasthisproblemofunbalanceddevelopmentbetweendifferentregionsandbetweenChinasurbanandruralareas.Chinaremainsadevelopingcountry.Westillhave800millionfarmersinruralareas,andwestillhavedozensofmillionpeoplelivinginpoverty.Asamatteroffact,over60millionpeopleinruralandurbanareasinChinastillliveonallowancesforbasiclivingcostsinmycountry.Andeachyear,weneedtotakecareofabout23millionunemployedinurbanareasandabout200millionfarmerscomeandgotocitiestofindjobsinChina.Weneedtomakecommittedandveryearnesteffortstoaddressalltheseproblems.Toaddressourownproblems,weneedtodoagreatdeal.Chinaisnotasuperpower.Thatswhyweneedtofocusonourowndevelopmentandonoureffortstoimprovepeopleslives.Zakaria:ButsurelytheChinesegovernmentcouldpressuretheSudanesegovernmentortheIraniangovernmentorthegovernmentinBurmatobelessrepressive.Youhaverelationswithallthreeofthem.WenJiabao:Thatbringsmetoyoursecondquestion.Actuallyintheinternationalcommunity,Chinaisajustice-upholdingcountry.Wenevertradeourprinciples.TaketheDarfurissuethatyouraisedjustnowforexample.Chinahasalwaysadvocatedthatweneedtoadoptadual-trackapproachtoseekasolutiontotheDarfurissue.Chinawasamongthefirstcountriessendingpeace-keeperstoDarfur.ChinawasalsothefirstcountrythatgaveassistancetoSudanandwealsokeepoureffortstoengagetheleadersinSudantotrytoseekapeacefulsolutiontotheissueasquicklyaspossible.Zakaria:DoyouthinkitwouldbedangerousfortheworldifIrangotnuclearweapons?Andwhatdoyouthinktheworldshoulddototrytostopthatpossibility?WenJiabao:WearenotsupportiveofanuclearrisetoIran.WebelievethatIranhastherighttodevelopautilizationofnuclearenergyinapeacefulway.Butsucheffortsshouldbesubjecttothesafeguardsofthe[InternationalAtomicEnergyAgency],andIranshouldnotdevelopnuclearweapons.AsfarastheIraniannuclearissueisconcerned,Chinasstanceisclear-cut.Wehopethatthroughpromotingthetalksconcerningthisissue,thatwewillbeabletoencouragetheIranianauthoritiestogiveupanyideatodevelopnuclearweaponsandacceptIAEAsafeguards.Nonetheless,wehopethatwecanusepeacefultalkstoachievethepurpose,ratherthanresorttothewillfuluseofforceortheintimZakaria:MayIaskyouaboutanothersetofpossibletalks?TheDalaiLamahassaidnowitappearsthathewouldacceptChina'sruleinTibet,heacceptsthesocialistsysteminTibet,andwhatheasksforisculturalautonomyandacertaindegreeofpoliticalautonomy.ThetalksapparentlyarestuckatalowerlevelbetweentheTibetansandtheChinesegovernment.Whydon'tyou,givenyourpowerandyournegotiatingskills,taketheissueyourself--andyouorPresidentHuJintaowouldnegotiatedirectlywiththeDalaiLamaandsolvethisissueonceandforallforthebenefitoftheChinesepeople,andofcoursetheTibetanpeoplewhoarealsoinChina?WenJiabao:OurissuewiththeDalaiLamaisnotaethnic,religiousorculturalissueintheordinarysense.It'samajorprincipledissueconcerningsafeguardingthecountry'sunityorallowingeffortstoseparateacountry.Andwemustadoptatwo-prongedapproachinviewingtheDalaiLama.Ononehand,itistruethattheDalaiisareligiousleader,andheenjoyscertaininfluenceintheTibetanregion,andparticularlyinregionsthattheinhabitantsbelieveinBuddhism.And,ontheotherhand,wemustalsobeawarethatheisnotanordinaryreligiousfigure.Theso-calledgovernmentinexilefoundedbytheDalaiLamapracticesatheocraticrule.Andthepurposeofthisso-calledgovernmentinexileistoseparateTibetfromChina.upapolicyweintroducedin1978.ThisholdsthekeytoChinassuccess.Byintroducingreformandopeningup,wehavegreatlyemancipatedproductivityinChina.Wehaveoneimportantthought:thatsocialismcanalsopracticemarketeconomy.Zakaria:Peoplethinkthatsacontradiction.Youhavethemarketeconomy,wherethemarketallocatesresources,andinsocialism,itsallcentralplanning.Howdoyoumakebothwork?WenJiabao:Thecompleteformulationofoureconomicpolicyistogivefullplaytothebasicroleofmarketforcesinallocatingresourcesunderthemacroeconomicguidanceandregulationofthegovernment.Wehaveoneimportantpieceofexperienceofthepast30years:thatistoensurethatboththevisiblehandandtheinvisiblehandaregivenfullplayinregulatingthemarketforces.IfyouarefamiliarwiththeclassicalworksofAdamSmith,youwillknowthattherearetwofamousworksofhis.OneisTheWealthofNations;theotheristhebookonthemoralityandethics.And,TheWealthofNationsdealsmorewiththeinvisiblehandthatarethemarketforces.Andtheotherbookdealswithsocialequityandjustice.Andintheotherbookhewrote,hestressedtheimportanceofplayingtheregulatoryroleofthegovernmenttofurtherdistributethewealthamongthepeople.Ifinacountry,mostofthewealthisconcentratedinthehandsofthefew,thenthiscountrycanhardlywitnessharmonyandstability.ThesameapproachalsoappliestothecurrentU.S.economy.Toaddressthecurrenteconomicandfinancialproblemsinthiscountry,weneedtoapplynotonlythevisiblehandbutalsotheinvisiblehand.Zakaria:MayIaskyou--someAmericansandEuropeans,particularlyhumanrightsobservers,saythatChinahascrackeddownonhumanrightsoverthelastfewyears,thattheyhadbeenhopingthattheOlympicswouldleadtoanopeningofChina,butthatithas,therehasbeenmorerepression.Howwouldyourespondtothat?WenJiabao:ByhostingtheOlympicGames,Chinahasactuallybecomemoreopen.Anyonewithoutbiaseswillsee--haveseenthat.InthefreedomofspeechandthefreedominnewsmediacoverageareguaranteedinChina.TheChinesegovernmentattachesimportanceto,andprotects,humanrights.WehaveincorporatedtheselinesintotheChineseconstitution,andwealsoimplementthestipulationinrealearnest.Ithinkforanygovernment,whatismostimportant,istoensurethatitspeopleenjoyeachandeveryrightgiventothembytheconstitution.Includingtheirrighttosurvival,freedomandtopursuetheirhappiness.Wedontthinkthatweareimpeccableintermsofhumanrights.Itistruethatinsomeplacesandinsomeareas,wedohaveproblemsofthiskindorthatkind.Nonetheless,wearecontinuingtomakeeffortstomakeimprovements,andwewanttofurtherimprovehumanrightsinourcountry.Zakaria:WhenIgotoChinaandIminahotelandItypeinthewordsTiananmenSquareinmycomputer,Igetafirewall,whatsomepeoplecalltheGreatFirewallofChina.CanyoubeanadvancedsocietyifyoudonthavefreedomofinformationtofindoutinformationontheInternet?WenJiabao:Chinanowhasover200millionInternetusers,andthefreedomofInternetinChinaisrecognizedbymany,evenfromthewest.Nonetheless,toupholdstatesecurity,China,likemanycountriesintheworld,hasalsoimposedsomeproperrestrictions.Thatisforthesafety,thatisfortheoverallsafetyofthecountryandforthefreedomofthemajorityofthepeople.IcanalsotellyouontheInternetinChina,youcanhaveaccesstoalotofpostingsthatarequitecriticalaboutthegovernment.ItisexactlythroughreadingthesecriticalopinionsontheInternetthatwetrytolocateproblemsandfurtherimproveourwork.Idontthinkasystemoragovernmentshouldfearcriticalopinionsorviews.Onlybyheedingthosecriticalviewswoulditbepossibleforustofurtherimproveourworkandmakefurtherprogress.IfrequentlybrowsetheInternettolearnaboutasituation.Zakaria:Whatareyourfavoritesites?WenJiabao:IvebrowsedalotofInternetWebsites.Zakaria:Iwilltakeadvantageofyourkindnessandaskyouaquestionthatmanypeoplearoundtheworldwonderabout.ThereisaveryfamousphotographofyouatTiananmensquarein1989.Whatlessondidyoutakefromyourexperiencesindealingwiththatproblemin1989?WenJiabao:Ibelievethatwhilemovingaheadwitheconomicreforms,wealsoneedtoadvancepoliticalreforms,asourdevelopmentiscomprehensiveinnature,ourreformshouldalsobecomprehensive.IthinkthecoreofyourquestionisaboutthedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina.IbelievewhenitcomestothedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina,wetalkaboutprogresstobemadeinthreeareas:No.1:WeneedtograduallyimprovethedemocraticelectionsystemsothatstatepowerwilltrulybelongtothepeopleandstatepowerwillbeusedtoservethepeopleNo.2:Weneedtoimprovethelegalsystem,runthecountryaccordingtolaw,andestablishthecountryundertheruleoflawandweneedtoviewanindependentandjustjudicialsystem.No.3:Governmentshouldbesubjecttooversightbythepeopleandthatwillaskus,callonustoincreasetransparencyingovernmentaffairsandparticularlyitisalsonecessaryforgovernmenttoacceptoversightbythenewsmediaandotherparties.ThereisalsoanotherimportantaspectthatwhenitcomestoInmanyplacesallovertheworld,theDalaiLamakeepspreachingabouttheideaofaso-calledautonomyinthegreaterTibetanregion.Andactually,theso-calledautonomythathepursuesisactuallytousereligiontointerveneinpolitics.Theywanttoseparatetheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionfromthemotherland.AndmanypeopleintheUnitedStateshavenoideahowbigistheso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,theso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,preachedbytheDalaiLama,actuallycoversTibet,Sichuan,Yunnan,QinghaiandGansu--altogetherfiveprovinces.Andtheareacoveredbytheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionaccountsforaquarterofChina'sterritory.Fordecades,ourpolicytowardstheDalaiLamaremainsunchanged:thatis,aslongastheDalaiLamaiswillingtorecognizethatTibetisaninalienablepartofChina'sterritory,andaslongastheDalaiLamagivesuphisseparatistactivities,we'rewillingtohavecontactandtalkswithhimorhisrepresentatives.Now,sincerityholdsthekeytoproducingresultoutofthetalks.AftertheTibetincidentbackinthe1950's,thehighestleaderofthecentralgovernment,Mr.DengXiaoping,alsomettherepresentativesoftheDalaiLama.从雪山上下来&#;看大家都在谈论温总接受cnn访问的内容&#;这是上个月23日在纽约出席联合国大会的时候做的&#;当时的访问超过了预定的时间。不过看了视频&#;和两年前一样&#;CNN没有使用原声加字幕的方法&#;而是直接使用了翻译的声音&#;也因为这样&#;现在大家使用的中文版本&#;实在是从英文翻译过来&#;也就是说&#;和温总的原话&#;字面上肯定会有一些差异&#;甚至是含义。因为中文有意思的地方&#;就是一个词&#;一个字&#;都会让不同人产生不同的理解。札卡利亚&#;FareedZakaria&#;在08年就采访过温总&#;而且凑巧的是&#;都是在9月23日。如果看提问的问题&#;都是以美国经济开始&#;都谈到了网络自由&#;也谈到了政治体制改革&#;当时温从三方面谈如何在中国推动民主过程。正如他在这次所说&#;两年的时间&#;他对于这个话题相得更多&#;也更加清楚&#;谈论政改的一部分表白&#;在他见华文媒体的时候已经说过。不过当时的访问并没有像这次&#;在中国的网络上引发太多关注。不如大家再看看08年的。BelowisthecompletetranscriptofFareedZakariasinterviewwithChinesePremierWenJiabao.TheinterviewwastapedSeptember23,andportionswereshownonFareedZakariaGPSonSeptember28.以下的内容是在2008年9月23日采访&#;2008年9月28日播出。Zakaria:Wearenowbeginningtheformalinterview,justsoeveryonerealizes.WenJiabao:Beforewebegin,IwouldliketoletyouknowthatIwillusethewordsfromthebottomofmyhearttoansweryourquestions,whichmeansthatIwilltellthetruthtoallyourquestions.IalwaystellpeoplethatsometimesImaynottellwhatisonmymind,thataslongasIspeakoutwhatisonmymind,thewordsaretrue.Ithinkyouarenowinterviewingastatesman,andatthesametimeyouareinterviewingastatesmaninhiscapacityasacommonpeople.Ipreferdialoguetolong-windedspeeches,soyoucanalwaysinterruptmeandraiseyourquestions.Thatwouldcertainlymakeourdialoguemorelively.Zakaria:Ilookforwardtothechanceforthisdialogue,andIbeginbythankingyouforgivingustheopportunityandthehonor.ThefirstthingIhavetoaskyou,Ithinkisonmanypeoplesminds.WhatdoyouthinkofthecurrentfinancialcrisisaffectingtheUnitedStates,anddoesitmakeyouthinkthattheAmericanmodelhasmanyflawsinitthatwearejustrecognizingnow?WenJiabao:ItookofficeastheChinesepremiersixyearsago,andbeforethenIwasservingasthevicepremierofthecountry.WhenIwasthevicepremier,IexperiencedanotherfinancialcrisisbutinAsia.AndinwakeoftheAsianfinancialcrisis,ChinaadoptedaproactivefiscalpolicyanddecidednottodevaluetheRMB,theChinesecurrency,butdoingsowemanagedtoovercomethedifficulties.ButnowtheproblemsintheUnitedStatesstartedwiththesubprimecrisisandlateron,FannieMaeandFreddieMacwereinvolvedintheproblems,andtheLehmanBrotherswasintrouble,MerrillLynchwasintrouble,theAIGwasintrouble,andsuchlargeinvestmentbankingcompaniesandinsurancecompaniesallencounteredsystematicproblems.AndthishasmademefeelthatthistimethecrisisthatoccurredintheUnitedStatesmayhaveanimpactthatwillaffectthewholeworld.Nonetheless,infaceofsuchacrisis,wemustalsobeawarethattodaysworldisdifferentfromtheworldthatpeoplelivedinbackinthe1930s.Sothistimeweshouldjoinhandsandmeetthecrisistogether.IfthefinancialandeconomicsystemintheUnitedStatesgowrong,thentheimpactwillbefelt,notonlyinthiscountrybutalsoinChina,inAsiaandintheworldatlarge.IhavenotedahostofpoliciesandmeasuresadoptedbytheU.S.governmenttopreventanisolatedcrisisfrombecomingasystematicone,andIhopethatmeasuresandstepstheyhaveadoptedwillpayoff.IalsohopethatthesemeasuresandstepswillnotonlysavesomemajorU.S.financialcompaniesbutalsohelpstabilizetheU.S.economyandensurethattheU.S.economywillgrowonabalancedcourse.Zakaria:Whenyoulookatyourowneconomy,asyouknow,therearemanypeoplewhonowsaytherewillbeasignificantslowdownoftheChineseeconomy.TherearepeoplepredictingthatChinesegrowthratesmayslowtoasmuchas7percent.Doyouthinkthatwillhappen?Andifitdoes,Iwonder,whatdoyouthinktheconsequenceswillbeinChina?WenJiabao:Yes,indeed.Chinaseconomyhasbeengrowingatanannualaveragerateof9.6percentfor30yearsrunning.Thisisamiracle.Particularlybetweentheyear2003and2007,Chinahadenjoyedadouble-digitgrowthforitseconomy,andatthesametimetheCPIgrewinforlessthan2percentayear.ItisfairtosaythatChinahasachievedafairlyfastandsteadyeconomicgrowth.Thistime,Chinahasbeenproactiveinadoptingregulatorymeasures.Ourpreviousconsiderationsweretopreventafast-growingeconomyfrombecomingoverheatedandtopreventthefastersoaringpricesfrombecomingobviousinflation.Butthingshavechangedveryfast,andIrefertothesub-primecrisisintheUnitedStatesandtheseriousfinancialturbulencesthatfollowthesub-primecrisis.Andasaresult,wehaveseenadeclineinexternaldemand,andChinasdomesticdemandcanhardlybeincreasedinaverysignificantmannerinashortperiodoftime.Inthiscase,itistruethatwedohavethisriskofaslowdownintheChineseeconomy.Inthiscontext,wemustre-adjustthemacroeconomicpolicyinChinainordertoadaptourselvestoexternalchanges.Whatismostimportantisforustostrikeabalancebetweeneconomicgrowth,dampeningthepricerisesandbringinginflationundercontrol.AndtostrikeabalancebetweenjobcreationanddampeninginflationandIknowitsvery,verydifficulttostrikeabalanceinallthoseareas.Weneedtoadoptaflexibleandprudentmacroeconomicpolicytoadapttoexternalchangesinordertoensureveryfastandsteadyeconomicgrowthandatthesametimekeepinginflationdown.Zakaria:DoyouthinkyoucancontinuetogrowiftheUnitedStatesgoesintoamajorrecession?WenJiabao:So,Idon'tthinkthereisthisproblem,aswhetherIcanhavecontactwiththeDalaiLama.Therealkeyliesintheeffectivenessofsuchcontactandtalks.Wehopethathecanuserealactionstoshowsincerityandbreakthedeadlock.从雪山上下来&#;看大家都在谈论温总接受cnn访问的内容&#;这是上个月23日在纽约出席联合国大会的时候做的&#;当时的拜访超过了预定的时间。不外看了视频&#;和两年前一样&#;CNN没有使用原声加字幕的方法&#;而是直接使用了翻译的声音&#;也因为这样&#;现在大家使用的中文版本&#;其实是从英文翻译过来&#;也就是说&#;和温总的原话&#;字面上肯定会有一些差异&#;甚至是含义。因为中文有意思的地方&#;就是一个词&#;一个字&#;都会让不同人产生不同的理解。札卡利亚&#;FareedZakaria&#;在08年就采访过温总&#;而且凑巧的是&#;都是在9月23日。如果看发问的问题&#;都是以美国经济开端&#;都谈到了网络自由&#;也谈到了政治体制改革&#;当时温从三方面谈如何在中国推动民主进程。正如他在这次所说&#;两年的时间&#;他对于这个话题相得更多&#;也更加清晰&#;谈论政改的一部分表达&#;在他见华文媒体的时候已经说过。不过当时的访问并没有像这次&#;在中国的网络上引发太多关注。不如大家再看看08年的。BelowisthecompletetranscriptofFareedZakariasinterviewwithChinesePremierWenJiabao.TheinterviewwastapedSeptember23,andportionswereshownonFareedZakariaGPSonSeptember28.以下的内容是在2008年9月23日采访&#;2008年9月28日播出。Zakaria:Wearenowbeginningtheformalinterview,justsoeveryonerealizes.WenJiabao:Beforewebegin,IwouldliketoletyouknowthatIwillusethewordsfromthebottomofmyhearttoansweryourquestions,whichmeansthatIwilltellthetruthtoallyourquestions.IalwaystellpeoplethatsometimesImaynottellwhatisonmymind,thataslongasIspeakoutwhatisonmymind,thewordsaretrue.Ithinkyouarenowinterviewingastatesman,andatthesametimeyouareinterviewingastatesmaninhiscapacityasacommonpeople.Ipreferdialoguetolong-windedspeeches,soyoucanalwaysinterruptmeandraiseyourquestions.Thatwouldcertainlymakeourdialoguemorelively.Zakaria:Ilookforwardtothechanceforthisdialogue,andIbeginbythankingyouforgivingustheopportunityandthehonor.ThefirstthingIhavetoaskyou,Ithinkisonmanypeoplesminds.WhatdoyouthinkofthecurrentfinancialcrisisaffectingtheUnitedStates,anddoesitmakeyouthinkthattheAmericanmodelhasmanyflawsinitthatwearejustrecognizingnow?WenJiabao:ItookofficeastheChinesepremiersixyearsago,andbeforethenIwasservingasthevicepremierofthecountry.WhenIwasthevicepremier,IexperiencedanotherfinancialcrisisbutinAsia.AndinwakeoftheAsianfinancialcrisis,ChinaadoptedaproactivefiscalpolicyanddecidednottodevaluetheRMB,theChinesecurrency,butdoingsowemanagedtoovercomethedifficulties.ButnowtheproblemsintheUnitedStatesstartedwiththesubprimecrisisandlateron,FannieMaeandFreddieMacwereinvolvedintheproblems,andtheLehmanBrotherswasintrouble,MerrillLynchwasintrouble,theAIGwasintrouble,andsuchlargeinvestmentbankingcompaniesandinsurancecompaniesallencounteredsystematicproblems.AndthishasmademefeelthatthistimethecrisisthatoccurredintheUnitedStatesmayhaveanimpactthatwillaffectthewholeworld.Nonetheless,infaceofsuchacrisis,wemustalsobeawarethattodaysworldisdifferentfromtheworldthatpeoplelivedinbackinthe1930s.Sothistimeweshouldjoinhandsandmeetthecrisistogether.IfthefinancialandeconomicsystemintheUnitedStatesgowrong,thentheimpactwillbefelt,notonlyinthiscountrybutalsoinChina,inAsiaandintheworldatlarge.IhavenotedahostofpoliciesandmeasuresadoptedbytheU.S.governmenttopreventanisolatedcrisisfrombecomingasystematicone,andIhopethatmeasuresandstepstheyhaveadoptedwillpayoff.IalsohopethatthesemeasuresandstepswillnotonlysavesomemajorU.S.financialcompaniesbutalsohelpstabilizetheU.S.economyandensurethattheU.S.economywillgrowonabalancedcourse.Zakaria:Whenyoulookatyourowneconomy,asyouknow,therearemanypeoplewhonowsaytherewillbeasignificantslowdownoftheChineseeconomy.TherearepeoplepredictingthatChinesegrowthratesmayslowtoasmuchas7percent.Doyouthinkthatwillhappen?Andifitdoes,Iwonder,whatdoyouthinktheconsequenceswillbeinChina?WenJiabao:Yes,indeed.Chinaseconomyhasbeengrowingatanannualaveragerateof9.6percentfor30yearsrunning.Thisisamiracle.Particularlybetweentheyear2003and2007,Chinahadenjoyedadouble-digitgrowthforitseconomy,andatthesametimetheCPIgrewinforlessthan2percentayear.ItisfairtosaythatChinahasachievedafairlyfastandsteadyeconomicgrowth.Thistime,Chinahasbeenproactiveinadoptingregulatorymeasures.Ourpreviousconsiderationsweretopreventafast-growingeconomyfrombecomingoverheatedandtopreventthefastersoaringpricesfrombecomingobviousinflation.Butthingshavechangedveryfast,andIrefertothesub-primecrisisintheUnitedStatesandtheseriousfinancialturbulencesthatfollowthesub-primecrisis.Andasaresult,wehaveseenadeclineinexternaldemand,andChinasdomesticdemandcanhardlybeincreasedinaverysignificantmannerinashortperiodoftime.Inthiscase,itistruethatwedohavethisriskofaslowdownintheChineseeconomy.Inthiscontext,wemustre-adjustthemacroeconomicpolicyinChinainordertoadaptourselvestoexternalchanges.Whatismostimportantisforustostrikeabalancebetweeneconomicgrowth,dampeningthepricerisesandbringinginflationundercontrol.AndtostrikeabalancebetweenjobcreationanddampeninginflationandIknowitsvery,verydifficulttostrikeabalanceinallthoseareas.Weneedtoadoptaflexibleandprudentmacroeconomicpolicytoadapttoexternalchangesinordertoensureveryfastandsteadyeconomicgrowthandatthesametimekeepinginflationdown.Zakaria:DoyouthinkyoucancontinuetogrowiftheUnitedStatesgoesintoamajorrecession?WenJiabao:Zakaria:WhatactionwouldyouliketoseefromtheDalaiLamathatwouldshowsincerity?WenJiabao:Actually,Ialreadymadeitclearthatwhenweobserveanyindividual,theDalaiLamaincluded,weshouldnotonlywatchwhat,weshouldnotonlyobservewhathesays,butalsowatchwhathedoes.idationofforce.Itsliketreatingtherelationshipbetweentwoindividuals.Ifoneindividualtriestocornertheother,thentheeffectwillbecounterproductive.Thatwilldonothinginhelpingresolvetheproblem.Ourpurposeistoresolvetheproblem,nottoescalatetensions.AndIalsohaveaquestionforyou:DontyouthinkthattheeffortsmadebyChinainresolvingtheKoreannuclearissueandpositionwehaveadoptedinthisregardhaveactuallyhelpedthesituationontheKoreanpeninsulamoveforthebetterdaybyday?And,ofcourse,IknowthatitstilltakestimetoseekathoroughandcompletesolutiontotheKoreannuclearissue,andonthatbasistohelpputinplacethesecurityandstabilityinNortheastAsia.But,whatIdliketostressisthatthemodelthatwehaveadopted,andtheeffortswehavemade,provetoberightinthis,inthisdirection.Zakaria:Sinceyouhonoredmebyaskingthequestion,Iwillsaytoyou,premier,thatChinaseffortsinNorthKoreahavebeenappreciatedintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworld.AndofcourseitmakespeoplewishthatChinawouldbeactiveinotherareasinjustthesameproductivewaythatitwasinNorthKoreabecauseweseethatitproducesresults.WenJiabao:Wehavegainedalotofexperienceandlearnedlessonsfromyearsofnegotiationsconcerningthesix-partytalks,andtheprogressmadeinthesix-partytalksalsohasalottodowiththeclosecooperationamongthesixparties.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutanothersetofpossibletalks?TheDalaiLamahassaidnowitappearsthathewouldacceptChinasruleinTibet,heacceptsthesocialistsysteminTibet,andwhatheasksforisculturalautonomyandacertaindegreeofpoliticalautonomy.ThetalksapparentlyarestuckatalowerlevelbetweentheTibetansandtheChinesegovernment.Whydontyou,givenyourpowerandyournegotiatingskills,taketheissueyourself--andyouorPresidentHuJintaowouldnegotiatedirectlywiththeDalaiLamaandsolvethisissueonceandforallforthebenefitoftheChinesepeople,andofcoursetheTibetanpeoplewhoarealsoinChina?WenJiabao:OurissuewiththeDalaiLamaisnotaethnic,religiousorculturalissueintheordinarysense.Itsamajorprincipledissueconcerningsafeguardingthecountrysunityorallowingeffortstoseparateacountry.Andwemustadoptatwo-prongedapproachinviewingtheDalaiLama.Ononehand,itistruethattheDalaiisareligiousleader,andheenjoyscertaininfluenceintheTibetanregion,andparticularlyinregionsthattheinhabitantsbelieveinBuddhism.And,ontheotherhand,wemustalsobeawarethatheisnotanordinaryreligiousfigure.Theso-calledgovernmentinexilefoundedbytheDalaiLamapracticesatheocraticrule.Andthepurposeofthisso-calledgovernmentinexileistoseparateTibetfromChina.Inmanyplacesallovertheworld,theDalaiLamakeepspreachingabouttheideaofaso-calledautonomyinthegreaterTibetanregion.Andactually,theso-calledautonomythathepursuesisactuallytousereligiontointerveneinpolitics.Theywanttoseparatetheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionfromthemotherland.AndmanypeopleintheUnitedStateshavenoideahowbigistheso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,theso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,preachedbytheDalaiLama,actuallycoversTibet,Sichuan,Yunnan,QinghaiandGansu--altogetherfiveprovinces.Andtheareacoveredbytheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionaccountsforaquarterofChinasterritory.Fordecades,ourpolicytowardstheDalaiLamaremainsunchanged:thatis,aslongastheDalaiLamaiswillingtorecognizethatTibetisaninalienablepartofChinasterritory,andaslongastheDalaiLamagivesuphisseparatistactivities,werewillingtohavecontactandtalkswithhimorhisrepresentatives.Now,sincerityholdsthekeytoproducingresultoutofthetalks.AftertheTibetincidentbackinthe1950s,thehighestleaderofthecentralgovernment,Mr.DengXiaoping,alsomettherepresentativesoftheDalaiLama.So,Idontthinkthereisthisproblem,aswhetherIcanhavecontactwiththeDalaiLama.Therealkeyliesintheeffectivenessofsuchcontactandtalks.Wehopethathecanuserealactionstoshowsincerityandbreakthedeadlock.Zakaria:WhatactionwouldyouliketoseefromtheDalaiLamathatwouldshowsincerity?WenJiabao:Actually,Ialreadymadeitclearthatwhenweobserveanyindividual,theDalaiLamaincluded,weshouldnotonlywatchwhat,weshouldnotonlyobservewhathesays,butalsowatchwhathedoes.Hissinceritycanbedemonstratedingivingupseparatistactivities.Zakaria:Andthenyoumightmeetwithhim?WenJiabao:Bythen,everythingdependsonthedevelopmentofthesituation.Ofcourse,talksmaycontinue,andinlightoftheprogressinthetalks,wemayalsoconsiderraisingthelevelofthetalks.Zakaria:PremierWen,yourcountryhasgrown,asyoupointedout,9?percentfor30years--fastestgrowthrateofanycountryinhistory.Ifpeoplecometoyouandsaytoyou,WhatistheChinesemodelofsucceedingasadevelopingcountry?Whatwouldyousay?Whatisthekeytoyoursuccess?Whatisthemodel?WenJiabao:Itseasytoanswerthisquestion,thatyoumaythinkaboutthisthing--thatabout30yearsago,whyChinawasnotabletogrowasfastasithasinthefollowingyears.IthinkthisisattributabletothereformsandopeningHissinceritycanbedemonstratedingivingupseparatistactivities.Zakaria:Andthenyoumightmeetwithhim?developmentofdemocracyinChina,weneedtotakeintoaccountChinasnationalconditions,andweneedtointroduceasystemthatsuitsChinasspecialfeatures,andweneedtointroduceagradualapproach.Zakaria:PeoplesayyourestudyingtheJapanesesystembecausetheresdemocracybuttheresonlyonepartythatseemstowintheelections.IsthatthekindofmodelyouseeforChina?WenJiabao:Ithinktherearemultipleformsofdemocracyintheworld.Whatisimportantisthesubstanceofdemocracy.Whichmeansthatattheendoftheday,whatisimportantaboutdemocracyisthatwhethersuchformofdemocracycanreallyrepresentthecallingandinterestofthepeople.SocialismasIunderstanditisasystemofdemocracy.Withoutdemocracy,thereisnosocialism.Andsuchademocracyfirstandforemostshouldservetoensurepeoplesrighttodemocraticelections,oversightanddecisionmaking.Suchademocracyshouldalsohelppeopletofullydevelopthemselvesinanall-aroundwayinanenvironmentfeaturingfreedomandequality.Andsuchademocracyshouldbebasedonafull-fledgedlegalsystem.Otherwise,therewouldbechaos.Thatswhyweneedtorunthecountryaccordingtolawandensurethateveryoneisequalunderthelaw.Zakaria:Wevetalkedaboutelectionsmanytimes.Doyouthinkin25yearstherewillbenationalelectionsinwhichtherewillbeacompetition,therewillbeperhapstwoparties,thatwillberunningforapositionsuchasyourown?WenJiabao:Itshardformetopredictwhatwillhappenin25yearstime.Thisbeingsaid,Ihavethisconviction--thatChinasdemocracywillcontinuetogrow.In20to30yearstime,thewholeChinesesocietywillbemoredemocraticandfairer,andthelegalsysteminChinawillfurtherbeimproved.Thesocialismasweseeitwillfurthermatureandimprove.Zakaria:Letmeaskyou,premier,finallyacoupleofquestionsthatarepersonal.YouvesaidthatyouvereadtheworksofMarcusAureliusahundredtimes.MarcusAureliusisafamousstoicphilosopher.Myreadingofhimsaysthatoneshouldnotbeinvolvedintheself,andinanykindofpursuitsthatareself-interestedbutshouldbemoreforthecommunityasawhole.WhenIgotoChinathesedays,Iamstruckbyhowmuchindividualismthereis,howmuchconsumerismthereis.AreyoutryingtosendasignaltotheChinesepeopletothinklessaboutthemselvesandmoreaboutthecommunity?WenJiabao:ItistrueIdidreadthemeditationswrittenbyMarcusAureliusAntonioonmanyoccasions,andIwasverydeeplyimpressedbythewordsthathewroteinthebook--tobefact-wherearethosepeoplethatweregreatforatime?Theyareallgone,leavingonlyastory,orsomeevenjusthalfastory.SoIdrawtheconclusionthatonlypeopleareinthepositiontocreatehistoryandwritehistory.Iverymuchvaluemorality,andIdobelievethatentrepreneurs,economistsandstatesmenalikeshouldpaymuchmoreattentiontomoralityandethics.Inmymind,thehigheststandardtomeasuretheethicsandmoralityisjustice.ThatswhyinthemorningwhenIansweredthequestion,IsaidthatIbelieveintheveinsoftheeconomist,weshouldseethebloodofmorality.Whenwethinkabouteconomy,wethinkmoreabouttherealelementsconcerningthecompany,thecapital,themarket,thetechnology,soonandsoforth.Andwemightforgetabouttheothersortofelementsthatworkbehindthescene,andthesefactorsarealsoaffectedbythevisiblefactorslikeconvictionandmorality.Onlywhenwecombinethesetwokindsoffactors,canweputinplaceafullpictureoftheDNAoftheeconomy.ItistrueinthecourseofChinaseconomicdevelopment,somecompanieshaveactuallypursuedtheirprofitsattheexpenseofmoralityandwewillneverallowsuchthingstohappen.Wewillnotalloweconomicgrowthattheexpenseofthelossofmoralitybecausesuchapproachsimplycannotsustain.Thatswhyweadvocatethecorporate,occupationalandsocialethics.Zakaria:Letmeaskyouafinalquestion,yourexcellency.YoumusthavebeenwatchingtheAmericanelection.Whatisyourreactiontothestrangeraceandelectionthatwearehavinginthiscountry?WenJiabao:ThepresidentialelectionoftheUnitedStatesshouldbedecidedbytheAmericanpeople.ButwhatIfollowverycloselyistherelationshipbetweenChinaandtheUnitedStatesaftertheelection.Inrecentyears,therehasbeenasoundgrowthmomentuminthegrowthofChina-U.S.relations.Andwehope,andwhoeveriselectedasthepresidentandwhoeverissworninintotheWhiteHouse,nomatterwhichpartywinstheelection,thatheorsheandthepartieswillcontinuetogrowtherelationshipwithChina.AndChinahopestocontinuetoimproveandgrowitsrelationshipwiththeUnitedStatesnomatterwhowilltakeofficeandleadthenewadministrationinthiscountry.Zakaria:Onthathappynote,Ithankyou,yourexcellency.Imsureyourpeopleareworriedwetookalittleextratime.AndIthankyouinadvanceforyourkindnessandyourfrankness.WenJiabao:Bythen,everythingdependsonthedevelopmentofthesituation.Ofcourse,talksmaycontinue,andinlightoftheprogressinthetalks,wemayalsoconsiderraisingthelevelofthetalks.从雪山上下来&#;看大家都在谈论温总接受cnn访问的内容&#;这是上个月23日在纽约出席联合国大会的时候做的&#;当时的访问超过了预定的时间。不过看了视频&#;和两年前一样&#;CNN没有使用原声加字幕的方式&#;而是直接使用了翻译的声音&#;也因为这样&#;现在大家使用的中文版本&#;其实是从英文翻译过来&#;也就是说&#;和温总的原话&#;字面上肯定会有一些差别&#;甚至是含义。因为中文有意思的地方&#;就是一个词&#;一个字&#;都会让不同人产生不同的理解。札卡利亚&#;FareedZakaria&#;在08年就采访过温总&#;而且凑巧的是&#;都是在9月23日。如果看提问的问题&#;都是以美国经济开始&#;都谈到了网络自由&#;也谈到了政治体制改造&#;当时温从三方面谈如何在中国推进民主进程。正如他在这次所说&#;两年的时间&#;他对这个话题相得更多&#;也更加清晰&#;谈论政改的一部分表达&#;在他见华文媒体的时候已经说过。不过当时的访问并没有像这次&#;在中国的网络上引发太多关注。不如大家再看看08年的。BelowisthecompletetranscriptofFareedZakariasinterviewwithChinesePremierWenJiabao.TheinterviewwastapedSeptember23,andportionswereshownonFareedZakariaGPSonSeptember28.以下的内容是在2008年9月23日采访&#;2008年9月28日播出。Zakaria:Wearenowbeginningtheformalinterview,justsoeveryonerealizes.WenJiabao:Beforewebegin,IwouldliketoletyouknowthatIwillusethewordsfromthebottomofmyhearttoansweryourquestions,whichmeansthatIwilltellthetruthtoallyourquestions.IalwaystellpeoplethatsometimesImaynottellwhatisonmymind,thataslongasIspeakoutwhatisonmymind,thewordsaretrue.Ithinkyouarenowinterviewingastatesman,andatthesametimeyouareinterviewingastatesmaninhiscapacityasacommonpeople.Ipreferdialoguetolong-windedspeeches,soyoucanalwaysinterruptmeandraiseyourquestions.Thatwouldcertainlymakeourdialoguemorelively.Zakaria:Ilookforwardtothechanceforthisdialogue,andIbeginbythankingyouforgivingustheopportunityandthehonor.ThefirstthingIhavetoaskyou,Ithinkisonmanypeoplesminds.WhatdoyouthinkofthecurrentfinancialcrisisaffectingtheUnitedStates,anddoesitmakeyouthinkthattheAmericanmodelhasmanyflawsinitthatwearejustrecognizingnow?WenJiabao:ItookofficeastheChinesepremiersixyearsago,andbeforethenIwasservingasthevicepremierofthecountry.WhenIwasthevicepremier,IexperiencedanotherfinancialcrisisbutinAsia.AndinwakeoftheAsianfinancialcrisis,ChinaadoptedaproactivefiscalpolicyanddecidednottodevaluetheRMB,theChinesecurrency,butdoingsowemanagedtoovercomethedifficulties.ButnowtheproblemsintheUnitedStatesstartedwiththesubprimecrisisandlateron,FannieMaeandFreddieMacwereinvolvedintheproblems,andtheLehmanBrotherswasintrouble,MerrillLynchwasintrouble,theAIGwasintrouble,andsuchlargeinvestmentbankingcompaniesandinsurancecompaniesallencounteredsystematicproblems.AndthishasmademefeelthatthistimethecrisisthatoccurredintheUnitedStatesmayhaveanimpactthatwillaffectthewholeworld.Nonetheless,infaceofsuchacrisis,wemustalsobeawarethattodaysworldisdifferentfromtheworldthatpeoplelivedinbackinthe1930s.Sothistimeweshouldjoinhandsandmeetthecrisistogether.IfthefinancialandeconomicsystemintheUnitedStatesgowrong,thentheimpactwillbefelt,notonlyinthiscountrybutalsoinChina,inAsiaandintheworldatlarge.IhavenotedahostofpoliciesandmeasuresadoptedbytheU.S.governmenttopreventanisolatedcrisisfrombecomingasystematicone,andIhopethatmeasuresandstepstheyhaveadoptedwillpayoff.IalsohopethatthesemeasuresandstepswillnotonlysavesomemajorU.S.financialcompaniesbutalsohelpstabilizetheU.S.economyandensurethattheU.S.economywillgrowonabalancedcourse.Zakaria:Whenyoulookatyourowneconomy,asyouknow,therearemanypeoplewhonowsaytherewillbeasignificantslowdownoftheChineseeconomy.TherearepeoplepredictingthatChinesegrowthratesmayslowtoasmuchas7percent.Doyouthinkthatwillhappen?Andifitdoes,Iwonder,whatdoyouthinktheconsequenceswillbeinChina?WenJiabao:Yes,indeed.Chinaseconomyhasbeengrowingatanannualaveragerateof9.6percentfor30yearsrunning.Thisisamiracle.Particularlybetweentheyear2003and2007,Chinahadenjoyedadouble-digitgrowthforitseconomy,andatthesametimetheCPIgrewinforlessthan2percentayear.ItisfairtosaythatChinahasachievedafairlyfastandsteadyeconomicgrowth.Thistime,Chinahasbeenproactiveinadoptingregulatorymeasures.Ourpreviousconsiderationsweretopreventafast-growingeconomyfrombecomingoverheatedandtopreventthefastersoaringpricesfrombecomingobviousinflation.Butthingshavechangedveryfast,andIrefertothesub-primecrisisintheUnitedStatesandtheseriousfinancialturbulencesthatfollowthesub-primecrisis.Andasaresult,wehaveseenadeclineinexternaldemand,andChinasdomesticdemandcanhardlybeincreasedinaverysignificantmannerinashortperiodoftime.Inthiscase,itistruethatwedohavethisriskofaslowdownintheChineseeconomy.Inthiscontext,wemustre-adjustthemacroeconomicpolicyinChinainordertoadaptourselvestoexternalchanges.Whatismostimportantisforustostrikeabalancebetweeneconomicgrowth,dampeningthepricerisesandbringinginflationundercontrol.AndtostrikeabalancebetweenjobcreationanddampeninginflationandIknowitsvery,verydifficulttostrikeabalanceinallthoseareas.Weneedtoadoptaflexibleandprudentmacroeconomicpolicytoadapttoexternalchangesinordertoensureveryfastandsteadyeconomicgrowthandatthesametimekeepinginflationdown.Zakaria:DoyouthinkyoucancontinuetogrowiftheUnitedStatesgoesintoamajorrecession?WenJiabao:Zakaria:PremierWen,yourcountryhasgrown,asyoupointedout,9?percentfor30years--fastestgrowthrateofanycountryinhistory.Ifpeoplecometoyouandsaytoyou,"WhatistheChinesemodelofsucceedingasadevelopingcountry?"Whatwouldyousay?Whatisthekeytoyoursuccess?Whatisthemodel?WenJiabao:It'seasytoanswerthisquestion,thatyoumaythinkaboutthisthing--thatabout30yearsago,whyChinawasnotabletogrowasfastasithasinthefollowingyears.Ithinkthisisattributabletothereformsandopeningupapolicyweintroducedin1978.ThisholdsthekeytoChina'ssuccess.Byintroducingreformandopeningup,wehavegreatlyemancipatedproductivityinChina.developmentofdemocracyinChina,weneedtotakeintoaccountChinasnationalconditions,andweneedtointroduceasystemthatsuitsChinasspecialfeatures,andweneedtointroduceagradualapproach.Zakaria:PeoplesayyourestudyingtheJapanesesystembecausetheresdemocracybuttheresonlyonepartythatseemstowintheelections.IsthatthekindofmodelyouseeforChina?WenJiabao:Ithinktherearemultipleformsofdemocracyintheworld.Whatisimportantisthesubstanceofdemocracy.Whichmeansthatattheendoftheday,whatisimportantaboutdemocracyisthatwhethersuchformofdemocracycanreallyrepresentthecallingandinterestofthepeople.SocialismasIunderstanditisasystemofdemocracy.Withoutdemocracy,thereisnosocialism.Andsuchademocracyfirstandforemostshouldservetoensurepeoplesrighttodemocraticelections,oversightanddecisionmaking.Suchademocracyshouldalsohelppeopletofullydevelopthemselvesinanall-aroundwayinanenvironmentfeaturingfreedomandequality.Andsuchademocracyshouldbebasedonafull-fledgedlegalsystem.Otherwise,therewouldbechaos.Thatswhyweneedtorunthecountryaccordingtolawandensurethateveryoneisequalunderthelaw.Zakaria:Wevetalkedaboutelectionsmanytimes.Doyouthinkin25yearstherewillbenationalelectionsinwhichtherewillbeacompetition,therewillbeperhapstwoparties,thatwillberunningforapositionsuchasyourown?WenJiabao:Itshardformetopredictwhatwillhappenin25yearstime.Thisbeingsaid,Ihavethisconviction--thatChinasdemocracywillcontinuetogrow.In20to30yearstime,thewholeChinesesocietywillbemoredemocraticandfairer,andthelegalsysteminChinawillfurtherbeimproved.Thesocialismasweseeitwillfurthermatureandimprove.Zakaria:Letmeaskyou,premier,finallyacoupleofquestionsthatarepersonal.YouvesaidthatyouvereadtheworksofMarcusAureliusahundredtimes.MarcusAureliusisafamousstoicphilosopher.Myreadingofhimsaysthatoneshouldnotbeinvolvedintheself,andinanykindofpursuitsthatareself-interestedbutshouldbemoreforthecommunityasawhole.WhenIgotoChinathesedays,Iamstruckbyhowmuchindividualismthereis,howmuchconsumerismthereis.AreyoutryingtosendasignaltotheChinesepeopletothinklessaboutthemselvesandmoreaboutthecommunity?WenJiabao:ItistrueIdidreadthemeditationswrittenbyMarcusAureliusAntonioonmanyoccasions,andIwasverydeeplyimpressedbythewordsthathewroteinthebook--tobefact-wherearethosepeoplethatweregreatforatime?Theyareallgone,leavingonlyastory,orsomeevenjusthalfastory.SoIdrawtheconclusionthatonlypeopleareinthepositiontocreatehistoryandwritehistory.Iverymuchvaluemorality,andIdobelievethatentrepreneurs,economistsandstatesmenalikeshouldpaymuchmoreattentiontomoralityandethics.Inmymind,thehigheststandardtomeasuretheethicsandmoralityisjustice.ThatswhyinthemorningwhenIansweredthequestion,IsaidthatIbelieveintheveinsoftheeconomist,weshouldseethebloodofmorality.Whenwethinkabouteconomy,wethinkmoreabouttherealelementsconcerningthecompany,thecapital,themarket,thetechnology,soonandsoforth.Andwemightforgetabouttheothersortofelementsthatworkbehindthescene,andthesefactorsarealsoaffectedbythevisiblefactorslikeconvictionandmorality.Onlywhenwecombinethesetwokindsoffactors,canweputinplaceafullpictureoftheDNAoftheeconomy.ItistrueinthecourseofChinaseconomicdevelopment,somecompanieshaveactuallypursuedtheirprofitsattheexpenseofmoralityandwewillneverallowsuchthingstohappen.Wewillnotalloweconomicgrowthattheexpenseofthelossofmoralitybecausesuchapproachsimplycannotsustain.Thatswhyweadvocatethecorporate,occupationalandsocialethics.Zakaria:Letmeaskyouafinalquestion,yourexcellency.YoumusthavebeenwatchingtheAmericanelection.Whatisyourreactiontothestrangeraceandelectionthatwearehavinginthiscountry?WenJiabao:ThepresidentialelectionoftheUnitedStatesshouldbedecidedbytheAmericanpeople.ButwhatIfollowverycloselyistherelationshipbetweenChinaandtheUnitedStatesaftertheelection.Inrecentyears,therehasbeenasoundgrowthmomentuminthegrowthofChina-U.S.relations.Andwehope,andwhoeveriselectedasthepresidentandwhoeverissworninintotheWhiteHouse,nomatterwhichpartywinstheelection,thatheorsheandthepartieswillcontinuetogrowtherelationshipwithChina.AndChinahopestocontinuetoimproveandgrowitsrelationshipwiththeUnitedStatesnomatterwhowilltakeofficeandleadthenewadministrationinthiscountry.Zakaria:Onthathappynote,Ithankyou,yourexcellency.Imsureyourpeopleareworriedwetookalittleextratime.AndIthankyouinadvanceforyourkindnessandyourfrankness.Wehaveoneimportantthought:thatsocialismcanalsopracticemarketeconomy.Zakaria:Peoplethinkthat'sacontradiction.Youhavethemarketeconomy,wherethemarketallocatesresources,andinsocialism,it'sallcentralplanning.Howdoyoumakebothwork?Inthefirsthalfofthisyear,orgiventhestatisticsforthefirsteightmonthsofthisyear,wecanseethatwehavemanagedtodothat.ApossibleU.S.economicrecessionwillcertainlyhaveanimpactontheChinaeconomy.Asweknowthat10yearsago,theChina-U.S.tradevolumestoodatonly$102.6billionU.S.,whiletodaythefiguressoarto$302billionU.S.,actuallyrepresentinganincreaseof1.5-fold.AshrinkingofU.S.demandwillcertainlyhaveanimpactonChinasexport.AndtheU.S.financeiscloselyconnectedwiththeChinesefinance.IfanythinggoeswrongintheU.S.financialsector,weareanxiousaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesecapital.ThatswhyintheverybeginningIhavemadeitclearthatthefinancialproblemsinthiscountrynotonlyconcernstheinterestsoftheUnitedStatesbutalsothatofChinaandtheworldatlarge.Zakaria:Thereisanothersenseinwhichweareinterdependent.ChinaisthelargestholderofU.S.Treasurybills.Bysomeaccounts,theyreworthalmost$1trillion.ItmakessomeAmericansuneasy.CanyoureassurethemthatChinawouldneverusethisstatusasaweaponinsomeway?WenJiabao:AsIsaid,webelievethattheU.S.realeconomyisstillsolidlybased.Particularlythehigh-techindustriesandthebasicindustries.Now,somethinghasgonewronginthevirtualeconomy,butifthisproblemisproperlyaddressed,thenitisstillpossibletostabilizetheeconomyinthiscountry.TheChinesegovernmenthopesverymuchthattheU.S.sidewillbeabletostabilizeitseconomyandfinanceasquicklyaspossible,andwealsohopetoseesustaineddevelopmentintheUnitedStatesasthatwillbenefitChina.Ofcourse,weareconcernedaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesemoneyhere.ButwebelievethattheUnitedStatesisacrediblecountryandparticularlyatsuchdifficulttimes,ChinahasreachedouttotheUnitedStates.Andactuallywebelievesuchahelpinghandwillhelpstabilizetheentireglobaleconomyandfinanceandtopreventamajorchaosfromoccurringintheglobaleconomicandfinancialsystem.Ibelievenowcooperationiseverything.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutChinasroleinabroadersense?ManypeopleseeChinaasasuperpoweralready,andtheywonder:whyisitnotbeingmoreactiveinpoliticalresolutionofissuessuchastheissueofDarfurortheissueofIrananditsnuclearambitions?ThereisahopethatChinawillplayaroleasaresponsiblestakeholder,touseRobertZoellicksphrasewhenhewasdeputysecretaryofstate,andthatChinawillbemoreactiveinmanagingthepoliticalproblemsintheworld,andthatsofarithasnotbeenactive.Howwouldyoureacttothat?WenJiabao:Toanswerthisquestion,Ineedtocorrectsomeoftheelementsinyourquestionfirst.ChinaisNOTasuperpower.AlthoughChinahasapopulationof1.3billionandalthoughinrecentyearsChinahasregisteredfairlyfasteconomicandsocialdevelopmentsincereformandopeningup,ChinastillhasthisproblemofunbalanceddevelopmentbetweendifferentregionsandbetweenChinasurbanandruralareas.Chinaremainsadevelopingcountry.Westillhave800millionfarmersinruralareas,andwestillhavedozensofmillionpeoplelivinginpoverty.Asamatteroffact,over60millionpeopleinruralandurbanareasinChinastillliveonallowancesforbasiclivingcostsinmycountry.Andeachyear,weneedtotakecareofabout23millionunemployedinurbanareasandabout200millionfarmerscomeandgotocitiestofindjobsinChina.Weneedtomakecommittedandveryearnesteffortstoaddressalltheseproblems.Toaddressourownproblems,weneedtodoagreatdeal.Chinaisnotasuperpower.Thatswhyweneedtofocusonourowndevelopmentandonoureffortstoimprovepeopleslives.Zakaria:ButsurelytheChinesegovernmentcouldpressuretheSudanesegovernmentortheIraniangovernmentorthegovernmentinBurmatobelessrepressive.Youhaverelationswithallthreeofthem.WenJiabao:Thatbringsmetoyoursecondquestion.Actuallyintheinternationalcommunity,Chinaisajustice-upholdingcountry.Wenevertradeourprinciples.TaketheDarfurissuethatyouraisedjustnowforexample.Chinahasalwaysadvocatedthatweneedtoadoptadual-trackapproachtoseekasolutiontotheDarfurissue.Chinawasamongthefirstcountriessendingpeace-keeperstoDarfur.ChinawasalsothefirstcountrythatgaveassistancetoSudanandwealsokeepoureffortstoengagetheleadersinSudantotrytoseekapeacefulsolutiontotheissueasquicklyaspossible.Zakaria:DoyouthinkitwouldbedangerousfortheworldifIrangotnuclearweapons?Andwhatdoyouthinktheworldshoulddototrytostopthatpossibility?WenJiabao:WearenotsupportiveofanuclearrisetoIran.WebelievethatIranhastherighttodevelopautilizationofnuclearenergyinapeacefulway.Butsucheffortsshouldbesubjecttothesafeguardsofthe[InternationalAtomicEnergyAgency],andIranshouldnotdevelopnuclearweapons.AsfarastheIraniannuclearissueisconcerned,Chinasstanceisclear-cut.Wehopethatthroughpromotingthetalksconcerningthisissue,thatwewillbeabletoencouragetheIranianauthoritiestogiveupanyideatodevelopnuclearweaponsandacceptIAEAsafeguards.Nonetheless,wehopethatwecanusepeacefultalkstoachievethepurpose,ratherthanresorttothewillfuluseofforceortheintimWenJiabao:Thecompleteformulationofoureconomicpolicyistogivefullplaytothebasicroleofmarketforcesinallocatingresourcesunderthemacroeconomicguidanceandregulationofthegovernment.Wehaveoneimportantpieceofexperienceofthepast30years:thatistoensurethatboththevisiblehandandtheinvisiblehandaregivenfullplayinregulatingthemarketforces.Inthefirsthalfofthisyear,orgiventhestatisticsforthefirsteightmonthsofthisyear,wecanseethatwehavemanagedtodothat.ApossibleU.S.economicrecessionwillcertainlyhaveanimpactontheChinaeconomy.Asweknowthat10yearsago,theChina-U.S.tradevolumestoodatonly$102.6billionU.S.,whiletodaythefiguressoarto$302billionU.S.,actuallyrepresentinganincreaseof1.5-fold.AshrinkingofU.S.demandwillcertainlyhaveanimpactonChinasexport.AndtheU.S.financeiscloselyconnectedwiththeChinesefinance.IfanythinggoeswrongintheU.S.financialsector,weareanxiousaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesecapital.ThatswhyintheverybeginningIhavemadeitclearthatthefinancialproblemsinthiscountrynotonlyconcernstheinterestsoftheUnitedStatesbutalsothatofChinaandtheworldatlarge.Zakaria:Thereisanothersenseinwhichweareinterdependent.ChinaisthelargestholderofU.S.Treasurybills.Bysomeaccounts,theyreworthalmost$1trillion.ItmakessomeAmericansuneasy.CanyoureassurethemthatChinawouldneverusethisstatusasaweaponinsomeway?WenJiabao:AsIsaid,webelievethattheU.S.realeconomyisstillsolidlybased.Particularlythehigh-techindustriesandthebasicindustries.Now,somethinghasgonewronginthevirtualeconomy,butifthisproblemisproperlyaddressed,thenitisstillpossibletostabilizetheeconomyinthiscountry.TheChinesegovernmenthopesverymuchthattheU.S.sidewillbeabletostabilizeitseconomyandfinanceasquicklyaspossible,andwealsohopetoseesustaineddevelopmentintheUnitedStatesasthatwillbenefitChina.Ofcourse,weareconcernedaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesemoneyhere.ButwebelievethattheUnitedStatesisacrediblecountryandparticularlyatsuchdifficulttimes,ChinahasreachedouttotheUnitedStates.Andactuallywebelievesuchahelpinghandwillhelpstabilizetheentireglobaleconomyandfinanceandtopreventamajorchaosfromoccurringintheglobaleconomicandfinancialsystem.Ibelievenowcooperationiseverything.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutChinasroleinabroadersense?ManypeopleseeChinaasasuperpoweralready,andtheywonder:whyisitnotbeingmoreactiveinpoliticalresolutionofissuessuchastheissueofDarfurortheissueofIrananditsnuclearambitions?ThereisahopethatChinawillplayaroleasaresponsiblestakeholder,touseRobertZoellicksphrasewhenhewasdeputysecretaryofstate,andthatChinawillbemoreactiveinmanagingthepoliticalproblemsintheworld,andthatsofarithasnotbeenactive.Howwouldyoureacttothat?WenJiabao:Toanswerthisquestion,Ineedtocorrectsomeoftheelementsinyourquestionfirst.ChinaisNOTasuperpower.AlthoughChinahasapopulationof1.3billionandalthoughinrecentyearsChinahasregisteredfairlyfasteconomicandsocialdevelopmentsincereformandopeningup,ChinastillhasthisproblemofunbalanceddevelopmentbetweendifferentregionsandbetweenChinasurbanandruralareas.Chinaremainsadevelopingcountry.Westillhave800millionfarmersinruralareas,andwestillhavedozensofmillionpeoplelivinginpoverty.Asamatteroffact,over60millionpeopleinruralandurbanareasinChinastillliveonallowancesforbasiclivingcostsinmycountry.Andeachyear,weneedtotakecareofabout23millionunemployedinurbanareasandabout200millionfarmerscomeandgotocitiestofindjobsinChina.Weneedtomakecommittedandveryearnesteffortstoaddressalltheseproblems.Toaddressourownproblems,weneedtodoagreatdeal.Chinaisnotasuperpower.Thatswhyweneedtofocusonourowndevelopmentandonoureffortstoimprovepeopleslives.Zakaria:ButsurelytheChinesegovernmentcouldpressuretheSudanesegovernmentortheIraniangovernmentorthegovernmentinBurmatobelessrepressive.Youhaverelationswithallthreeofthem.WenJiabao:Thatbringsmetoyoursecondquestion.Actuallyintheinternationalcommunity,Chinaisajustice-upholdingcountry.Wenevertradeourprinciples.TaketheDarfurissuethatyouraisedjustnowforexample.Chinahasalwaysadvocatedthatweneedtoadoptadual-trackapproachtoseekasolutiontotheDarfurissue.Chinawasamongthefirstcountriessendingpeace-keeperstoDarfur.ChinawasalsothefirstcountrythatgaveassistancetoSudanandwealsokeepoureffortstoengagetheleadersinSudantotrytoseekapeacefulsolutiontotheissueasquicklyaspossible.Zakaria:DoyouthinkitwouldbedangerousfortheworldifIrangotnuclearweapons?Andwhatdoyouthinktheworldshoulddototrytostopthatpossibility?WenJiabao:WearenotsupportiveofanuclearrisetoIran.WebelievethatIranhastherighttodevelopautilizationofnuclearenergyinapeacefulway.Butsucheffortsshouldbesubjecttothesafeguardsofthe[InternationalAtomicEnergyAgency],andIranshouldnotdevelopnuclearweapons.AsfarastheIraniannuclearissueisconcerned,Chinasstanceisclear-cut.Wehopethatthroughpromotingthetalksconcerningthisissue,thatwewillbeabletoencouragetheIranianauthoritiestogiveupanyideatodevelopnuclearweaponsandacceptIAEAsafeguards.Nonetheless,wehopethatwecanusepeacefultalkstoachievethepurpose,ratherthanresorttothewillfuluseofforceortheintimIfyouarefamiliarwiththeclassicalworksofAdamSmith,youwillknowthattherearetwofamousworksofhis.Oneis"TheWealthofNations";theotheristhebookonthemoralityandethics.And,"TheWealthofNations"dealsmorewiththeinvisiblehandthatarethemarketforces.Andtheotherbookdealswithsocialequityandjustice.Andintheotherbookhewrote,hestressedtheimportanceofplayingtheregulatoryroleofthegovernmenttofurtherdistributethewealthamongthepeople.Ifinacountry,mostofthewealthisconcentratedinthehandsofthefew,thenthiscountrycanhardlywitnessharmonyandstability.ThesameapproachalsoappliestothecurrentU.S.economy.Toaddressthecurrenteconomicandfinancialproblemsinthiscountry,weneedtoapplynotonlythevisiblehandbutalsotheinvisiblehand.developmentofdemocracyinChina,weneedtotakeintoaccountChinasnationalconditions,andweneedtointroduceasystemthatsuitsChinasspecialfeatures,andweneedtointroduceagradualapproach.Zakaria:PeoplesayyourestudyingtheJapanesesystembecausetheresdemocracybuttheresonlyonepartythatseemstowintheelections.IsthatthekindofmodelyouseeforChina?WenJiabao:Ithinktherearemultipleformsofdemocracyintheworld.Whatisimportantisthesubstanceofdemocracy.Whichmeansthatattheendoftheday,whatisimportantaboutdemocracyisthatwhethersuchformofdemocracycanreallyrepresentthecallingandinterestofthepeople.SocialismasIunderstanditisasystemofdemocracy.Withoutdemocracy,thereisnosocialism.Andsuchademocracyfirstandforemostshouldservetoensurepeoplesrighttodemocraticelections,oversightanddecisionmaking.Suchademocracyshouldalsohelppeopletofullydevelopthemselvesinanall-aroundwayinanenvironmentfeaturingfreedomandequality.Andsuchademocracyshouldbebasedonafull-fledgedlegalsystem.Otherwise,therewouldbechaos.Thatswhyweneedtorunthecountryaccordingtolawandensurethateveryoneisequalunderthelaw.Zakaria:Wevetalkedaboutelectionsmanytimes.Doyouthinkin25yearstherewillbenationalelectionsinwhichtherewillbeacompetition,therewillbeperhapstwoparties,thatwillberunningforapositionsuchasyourown?WenJiabao:Itshardformetopredictwhatwillhappenin25yearstime.Thisbeingsaid,Ihavethisconviction--thatChinasdemocracywillcontinuetogrow.In20to30yearstime,thewholeChinesesocietywillbemoredemocraticandfairer,andthelegalsysteminChinawillfurtherbeimproved.Thesocialismasweseeitwillfurthermatureandimprove.Zakaria:Letmeaskyou,premier,finallyacoupleofquestionsthatarepersonal.YouvesaidthatyouvereadtheworksofMarcusAureliusahundredtimes.MarcusAureliusisafamousstoicphilosopher.Myreadingofhimsaysthatoneshouldnotbeinvolvedintheself,andinanykindofpursuitsthatareself-interestedbutshouldbemoreforthecommunityasawhole.WhenIgotoChinathesedays,Iamstruckbyhowmuchindividualismthereis,howmuchconsumerismthereis.AreyoutryingtosendasignaltotheChinesepeopletothinklessaboutthemselvesandmoreaboutthecommunity?WenJiabao:ItistrueIdidreadthemeditationswrittenbyMarcusAureliusAntonioonmanyoccasions,andIwasverydeeplyimpressedbythewordsthathewroteinthebook--tobefact-wherearethosepeoplethatweregreatforatime?Theyareallgone,leavingonlyastory,orsomeevenjusthalfastory.SoIdrawtheconclusionthatonlypeopleareinthepositiontocreatehistoryandwritehistory.Iverymuchvaluemorality,andIdobelievethatentrepreneurs,economistsandstatesmenalikeshouldpaymuchmoreattentiontomoralityandethics.Inmymind,thehigheststandardtomeasuretheethicsandmoralityisjustice.ThatswhyinthemorningwhenIansweredthequestion,IsaidthatIbelieveintheveinsoftheeconomist,weshouldseethebloodofmorality.Whenwethinkabouteconomy,wethinkmoreabouttherealelementsconcerningthecompany,thecapital,themarket,thetechnology,soonandsoforth.Andwemightforgetabouttheothersortofelementsthatworkbehindthescene,andthesefactorsarealsoaffectedbythevisiblefactorslikeconvictionandmorality.Onlywhenwecombinethesetwokindsoffactors,canweputinplaceafullpictureoftheDNAoftheeconomy.ItistrueinthecourseofChinaseconomicdevelopment,somecompanieshaveactuallypursuedtheirprofitsattheexpenseofmoralityandwewillneverallowsuchthingstohappen.Wewillnotalloweconomicgrowthattheexpenseofthelossofmoralitybecausesuchapproachsimplycannotsustain.Thatswhyweadvocatethecorporate,occupationalandsocialethics.Zakaria:Letmeaskyouafinalquestion,yourexcellency.YoumusthavebeenwatchingtheAmericanelection.Whatisyourreactiontothestrangeraceandelectionthatwearehavinginthiscountry?WenJiabao:ThepresidentialelectionoftheUnitedStatesshouldbedecidedbytheAmericanpeople.ButwhatIfollowverycloselyistherelationshipbetweenChinaandtheUnitedStatesaftertheelection.Inrecentyears,therehasbeenasoundgrowthmomentuminthegrowthofChina-U.S.relations.Andwehope,andwhoeveriselectedasthepresidentandwhoeverissworninintotheWhiteHouse,nomatterwhichpartywinstheelection,thatheorsheandthepartieswillcontinuetogrowtherelationshipwithChina.AndChinahopestocontinuetoimproveandgrowitsrelationshipwiththeUnitedStatesnomatterwhowilltakeofficeandleadthenewadministrationinthiscountry.Zakaria:Onthathappynote,Ithankyou,yourexcellency.Imsureyourpeopleareworriedwetookalittleextratime.AndIthankyouinadvanceforyourkindnessandyourfrankness.Zakaria:MayIaskyou--someAmericansandEuropeans,particularlyhumanrightsobservers,saythatChinahascrackeddownonhumanrightsoverthelastfewyears,thattheyhadbeenhopingthattheOlympicswouldleadtoanopeningofChina,butthatithas,therehasbeenmorerepression.Howwouldyourespondtothat?idationofforce.Itsliketreatingtherelationshipbetweentwoindividuals.Ifoneindividualtriestocornertheother,thentheeffectwillbecounterproductive.Thatwilldonothinginhelpingresolvetheproblem.Ourpurposeistoresolvetheproblem,nottoescalatetensions.AndIalsohaveaquestionforyou:DontyouthinkthattheeffortsmadebyChinainresolvingtheKoreannuclearissueandpositionwehaveadoptedinthisregardhaveactuallyhelpedthesituationontheKoreanpeninsulamoveforthebetterdaybyday?And,ofcourse,IknowthatitstilltakestimetoseekathoroughandcompletesolutiontotheKoreannuclearissue,andonthatbasistohelpputinplacethesecurityandstabilityinNortheastAsia.But,whatIdliketostressisthatthemodelthatwehaveadopted,andtheeffortswehavemade,provetoberightinthis,inthisdirection.Zakaria:Sinceyouhonoredmebyaskingthequestion,Iwillsaytoyou,premier,thatChinaseffortsinNorthKoreahavebeenappreciatedintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworld.AndofcourseitmakespeoplewishthatChinawouldbeactiveinotherareasinjustthesameproductivewaythatitwasinNorthKoreabecauseweseethatitproducesresults.WenJiabao:Wehavegainedalotofexperienceandlearnedlessonsfromyearsofnegotiationsconcerningthesix-partytalks,andtheprogressmadeinthesix-partytalksalsohasalottodowiththeclosecooperationamongthesixparties.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutanothersetofpossibletalks?TheDalaiLamahassaidnowitappearsthathewouldacceptChinasruleinTibet,heacceptsthesocialistsysteminTibet,andwhatheasksforisculturalautonomyandacertaindegreeofpoliticalautonomy.ThetalksapparentlyarestuckatalowerlevelbetweentheTibetansandtheChinesegovernment.Whydontyou,givenyourpowerandyournegotiatingskills,taketheissueyourself--andyouorPresidentHuJintaowouldnegotiatedirectlywiththeDalaiLamaandsolvethisissueonceandforallforthebenefitoftheChinesepeople,andofcoursetheTibetanpeoplewhoarealsoinChina?WenJiabao:OurissuewiththeDalaiLamaisnotaethnic,religiousorculturalissueintheordinarysense.Itsamajorprincipledissueconcerningsafeguardingthecountrysunityorallowingeffortstoseparateacountry.Andwemustadoptatwo-prongedapproachinviewingtheDalaiLama.Ononehand,itistruethattheDalaiisareligiousleader,andheenjoyscertaininfluenceintheTibetanregion,andparticularlyinregionsthattheinhabitantsbelieveinBuddhism.And,ontheotherhand,wemustalsobeawarethatheisnotanordinaryreligiousfigure.Theso-calledgovernmentinexilefoundedbytheDalaiLamapracticesatheocraticrule.Andthepurposeofthisso-calledgovernmentinexileistoseparateTibetfromChina.Inmanyplacesallovertheworld,theDalaiLamakeepspreachingabouttheideaofaso-calledautonomyinthegreaterTibetanregion.Andactually,theso-calledautonomythathepursuesisactuallytousereligiontointerveneinpolitics.Theywanttoseparatetheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionfromthemotherland.AndmanypeopleintheUnitedStateshavenoideahowbigistheso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,theso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,preachedbytheDalaiLama,actuallycoversTibet,Sichuan,Yunnan,QinghaiandGansu--altogetherfiveprovinces.Andtheareacoveredbytheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionaccountsforaquarterofChinasterritory.Fordecades,ourpolicytowardstheDalaiLamaremainsunchanged:thatis,aslongastheDalaiLamaiswillingtorecognizethatTibetisaninalienablepartofChinasterritory,andaslongastheDalaiLamagivesuphisseparatistactivities,werewillingtohavecontactandtalkswithhimorhisrepresentatives.Now,sincerityholdsthekeytoproducingresultoutofthetalks.AftertheTibetincidentbackinthe1950s,thehighestleaderofthecentralgovernment,Mr.DengXiaoping,alsomettherepresentativesoftheDalaiLama.So,Idontthinkthereisthisproblem,aswhetherIcanhavecontactwiththeDalaiLama.Therealkeyliesintheeffectivenessofsuchcontactandtalks.Wehopethathecanuserealactionstoshowsincerityandbreakthedeadlock.Zakaria:WhatactionwouldyouliketoseefromtheDalaiLamathatwouldshowsincerity?WenJiabao:Actually,Ialreadymadeitclearthatwhenweobserveanyindividual,theDalaiLamaincluded,weshouldnotonlywatchwhat,weshouldnotonlyobservewhathesays,butalsowatchwhathedoes.Hissinceritycanbedemonstratedingivingupseparatistactivities.Zakaria:Andthenyoumightmeetwithhim?WenJiabao:Bythen,everythingdependsonthedevelopmentofthesituation.Ofcourse,talksmaycontinue,andinlightoftheprogressinthetalks,wemayalsoconsiderraisingthelevelofthetalks.Zakaria:PremierWen,yourcountryhasgrown,asyoupointedout,9?percentfor30years--fastestgrowthrateofanycountryinhistory.Ifpeoplecometoyouandsaytoyou,WhatistheChinesemodelofsucceedingasadevelopingcountry?Whatwouldyousay?Whatisthekeytoyoursuccess?Whatisthemodel?WenJiabao:Itseasytoanswerthisquestion,thatyoumaythinkaboutthisthing--thatabout30yearsago,whyChinawasnotabletogrowasfastasithasinthefollowingyears.IthinkthisisattributabletothereformsandopeningWenJiabao:ByhostingtheOlympicGames,Chinahasactuallybecomemoreopen.Anyonewithoutbiaseswillsee--haveseenthat.InthefreedomofspeechandthefreedominnewsmediacoverageareguaranteedinChina.TheChinesegovernmentattachesimportanceto,andprotects,humanrights.WehaveincorporatedtheselinesintotheChineseconstitution,andwealsoimplementthestipulationinrealearnest.Ithinkforanygovernment,whatismostimportant,istoensurethatitspeopleenjoyeachandeveryrightgiventothembytheconstitution.Includingtheirrighttosurvival,freedomandtopursuetheirhappiness.Wedon'tthinkthatweareimpeccableintermsofhumanrights.Itistruethatinsomeplacesandinsomeareas,wedohaveproblemsofthiskindorthatkind.Nonetheless,wearecontinuingtomakeeffortstomakeimprovements,andwewanttofurtherimprovehumanrightsinourcountry.从雪山上下来&#;看大家都在谈论温总接受cnn访问的内容&#;这是上个月23日在纽约出席联合国大会的时候做的&#;当时的访问超过了预约的时间。不过看了视频&#;和两年前一样&#;CNN没有使用原声加字幕的方法&#;而是直接使用了翻译的声音&#;也因为这样&#;现在大家使用的中文版本&#;其实是从英文翻译过来&#;也就是说&#;和温总的原话&#;字面上确定会有一些差异&#;甚至是含义。因为中文有意思的地方&#;就是一个词&#;一个字&#;都会让不同人产生不同的理解。札卡利亚&#;FareedZakaria&#;在08年就采访过温总&#;而且凑巧的是&#;都是在9月23日。如果看提问的问题&#;都是以美国经济开始&#;都谈到了网络自由&#;也谈到了政治体制改革&#;当时温从三方面谈如何在中国推动民主进程。正如他在这次所说&#;两年的时间&#;他对于这个话题相得更多&#;也更加清晰&#;谈论政改的一部分表达&#;在他见华文媒体的时候已经说过。不过当时的访问并没有像这次&#;在中国的网络上引发太多关注。不如大家再看看08年的。BelowisthecompletetranscriptofFareedZakariasinterviewwithChinesePremierWenJiabao.TheinterviewwastapedSeptember23,andportionswereshownonFareedZakariaGPSonSeptember28.以下的内容是在2008年9月23日采访&#;2008年9月28日播出。Zakaria:Wearenowbeginningtheformalinterview,justsoeveryonerealizes.WenJiabao:Beforewebegin,IwouldliketoletyouknowthatIwillusethewordsfromthebottomofmyhearttoansweryourquestions,whichmeansthatIwilltellthetruthtoallyourquestions.IalwaystellpeoplethatsometimesImaynottellwhatisonmymind,thataslongasIspeakoutwhatisonmymind,thewordsaretrue.Ithinkyouarenowinterviewingastatesman,andatthesametimeyouareinterviewingastatesmaninhiscapacityasacommonpeople.Ipreferdialoguetolong-windedspeeches,soyoucanalwaysinterruptmeandraiseyourquestions.Thatwouldcertainlymakeourdialoguemorelively.Zakaria:Ilookforwardtothechanceforthisdialogue,andIbeginbythankingyouforgivingustheopportunityandthehonor.ThefirstthingIhavetoaskyou,Ithinkisonmanypeoplesminds.WhatdoyouthinkofthecurrentfinancialcrisisaffectingtheUnitedStates,anddoesitmakeyouthinkthattheAmericanmodelhasmanyflawsinitthatwearejustrecognizingnow?WenJiabao:ItookofficeastheChinesepremiersixyearsago,andbeforethenIwasservingasthevicepremierofthecountry.WhenIwasthevicepremier,IexperiencedanotherfinancialcrisisbutinAsia.AndinwakeoftheAsianfinancialcrisis,ChinaadoptedaproactivefiscalpolicyanddecidednottodevaluetheRMB,theChinesecurrency,butdoingsowemanagedtoovercomethedifficulties.ButnowtheproblemsintheUnitedStatesstartedwiththesubprimecrisisandlateron,FannieMaeandFreddieMacwereinvolvedintheproblems,andtheLehmanBrotherswasintrouble,MerrillLynchwasintrouble,theAIGwasintrouble,andsuchlargeinvestmentbankingcompaniesandinsurancecompaniesallencounteredsystematicproblems.AndthishasmademefeelthatthistimethecrisisthatoccurredintheUnitedStatesmayhaveanimpactthatwillaffectthewholeworld.Nonetheless,infaceofsuchacrisis,wemustalsobeawarethattodaysworldisdifferentfromtheworldthatpeoplelivedinbackinthe1930s.Sothistimeweshouldjoinhandsandmeetthecrisistogether.IfthefinancialandeconomicsystemintheUnitedStatesgowrong,thentheimpactwillbefelt,notonlyinthiscountrybutalsoinChina,inAsiaandintheworldatlarge.IhavenotedahostofpoliciesandmeasuresadoptedbytheU.S.governmenttopreventanisolatedcrisisfrombecomingasystematicone,andIhopethatmeasuresandstepstheyhaveadoptedwillpayoff.IalsohopethatthesemeasuresandstepswillnotonlysavesomemajorU.S.financialcompaniesbutalsohelpstabilizetheU.S.economyandensurethattheU.S.economywillgrowonabalancedcourse.Zakaria:Whenyoulookatyourowneconomy,asyouknow,therearemanypeoplewhonowsaytherewillbeasignificantslowdownoftheChineseeconomy.TherearepeoplepredictingthatChinesegrowthratesmayslowtoasmuchas7percent.Doyouthinkthatwillhappen?Andifitdoes,Iwonder,whatdoyouthinktheconsequenceswillbeinChina?WenJiabao:Yes,indeed.Chinaseconomyhasbeengrowingatanannualaveragerateof9.6percentfor30yearsrunning.Thisisamiracle.Particularlybetweentheyear2003and2007,Chinahadenjoyedadouble-digitgrowthforitseconomy,andatthesametimetheCPIgrewinforlessthan2percentayear.ItisfairtosaythatChinahasachievedafairlyfastandsteadyeconomicgrowth.Thistime,Chinahasbeenproactiveinadoptingregulatorymeasures.Ourpreviousconsiderationsweretopreventafast-growingeconomyfrombecomingoverheatedandtopreventthefastersoaringpricesfrombecomingobviousinflation.Butthingshavechangedveryfast,andIrefertothesub-primecrisisintheUnitedStatesandtheseriousfinancialturbulencesthatfollowthesub-primecrisis.Andasaresult,wehaveseenadeclineinexternaldemand,andChinasdomesticdemandcanhardlybeincreasedinaverysignificantmannerinashortperiodoftime.Inthiscase,itistruethatwedohavethisriskofaslowdownintheChineseeconomy.Inthiscontext,wemustre-adjustthemacroeconomicpolicyinChinainordertoadaptourselvestoexternalchanges.Whatismostimportantisforustostrikeabalancebetweeneconomicgrowth,dampeningthepricerisesandbringinginflationundercontrol.AndtostrikeabalancebetweenjobcreationanddampeninginflationandIknowitsvery,verydifficulttostrikeabalanceinallthoseareas.Weneedtoadoptaflexibleandprudentmacroeconomicpolicytoadapttoexternalchangesinordertoensureveryfastandsteadyeconomicgrowthandatthesametimekeepinginflationdown.Zakaria:DoyouthinkyoucancontinuetogrowiftheUnitedStatesgoesintoamajorrecession?WenJiabao:Zakaria:WhenIgotoChinaandI'minahotelandItypeinthewordsTiananmenSquareinmycomputer,Igetafirewall,whatsomepeoplecalltheGreatFirewallofChina.Canyoubeanadvancedsocietyifyoudon'thavefreedomofinformationtofindoutinformationontheInternet?idationofforce.Itsliketreatingtherelationshipbetweentwoindividuals.Ifoneindividualtriestocornertheother,thentheeffectwillbecounterproductive.Thatwilldonothinginhelpingresolvetheproblem.Ourpurposeistoresolvetheproblem,nottoescalatetensions.AndIalsohaveaquestionforyou:DontyouthinkthattheeffortsmadebyChinainresolvingtheKoreannuclearissueandpositionwehaveadoptedinthisregardhaveactuallyhelpedthesituationontheKoreanpeninsulamoveforthebetterdaybyday?And,ofcourse,IknowthatitstilltakestimetoseekathoroughandcompletesolutiontotheKoreannuclearissue,andonthatbasistohelpputinplacethesecurityandstabilityinNortheastAsia.But,whatIdliketostressisthatthemodelthatwehaveadopted,andtheeffortswehavemade,provetoberightinthis,inthisdirection.Zakaria:Sinceyouhonoredmebyaskingthequestion,Iwillsaytoyou,premier,thatChinaseffortsinNorthKoreahavebeenappreciatedintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworld.AndofcourseitmakespeoplewishthatChinawouldbeactiveinotherareasinjustthesameproductivewaythatitwasinNorthKoreabecauseweseethatitproducesresults.WenJiabao:Wehavegainedalotofexperienceandlearnedlessonsfromyearsofnegotiationsconcerningthesix-partytalks,andtheprogressmadeinthesix-partytalksalsohasalottodowiththeclosecooperationamongthesixparties.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutanothersetofpossibletalks?TheDalaiLamahassaidnowitappearsthathewouldacceptChinasruleinTibet,heacceptsthesocialistsysteminTibet,andwhatheasksforisculturalautonomyandacertaindegreeofpoliticalautonomy.ThetalksapparentlyarestuckatalowerlevelbetweentheTibetansandtheChinesegovernment.Whydontyou,givenyourpowerandyournegotiatingskills,taketheissueyourself--andyouorPresidentHuJintaowouldnegotiatedirectlywiththeDalaiLamaandsolvethisissueonceandforallforthebenefitoftheChinesepeople,andofcoursetheTibetanpeoplewhoarealsoinChina?WenJiabao:OurissuewiththeDalaiLamaisnotaethnic,religiousorculturalissueintheordinarysense.Itsamajorprincipledissueconcerningsafeguardingthecountrysunityorallowingeffortstoseparateacountry.Andwemustadoptatwo-prongedapproachinviewingtheDalaiLama.Ononehand,itistruethattheDalaiisareligiousleader,andheenjoyscertaininfluenceintheTibetanregion,andparticularlyinregionsthattheinhabitantsbelieveinBuddhism.And,ontheotherhand,wemustalsobeawarethatheisnotanordinaryreligiousfigure.Theso-calledgovernmentinexilefoundedbytheDalaiLamapracticesatheocraticrule.Andthepurposeofthisso-calledgovernmentinexileistoseparateTibetfromChina.Inmanyplacesallovertheworld,theDalaiLamakeepspreachingabouttheideaofaso-calledautonomyinthegreaterTibetanregion.Andactually,theso-calledautonomythathepursuesisactuallytousereligiontointerveneinpolitics.Theywanttoseparatetheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionfromthemotherland.AndmanypeopleintheUnitedStateshavenoideahowbigistheso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,theso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,preachedbytheDalaiLama,actuallycoversTibet,Sichuan,Yunnan,QinghaiandGansu--altogetherfiveprovinces.Andtheareacoveredbytheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionaccountsforaquarterofChinasterritory.Fordecades,ourpolicytowardstheDalaiLamaremainsunchanged:thatis,aslongastheDalaiLamaiswillingtorecognizethatTibetisaninalienablepartofChinasterritory,andaslongastheDalaiLamagivesuphisseparatistactivities,werewillingtohavecontactandtalkswithhimorhisrepresentatives.Now,sincerityholdsthekeytoproducingresultoutofthetalks.AftertheTibetincidentbackinthe1950s,thehighestleaderofthecentralgovernment,Mr.DengXiaoping,alsomettherepresentativesoftheDalaiLama.So,Idontthinkthereisthisproblem,aswhetherIcanhavecontactwiththeDalaiLama.Therealkeyliesintheeffectivenessofsuchcontactandtalks.Wehopethathecanuserealactionstoshowsincerityandbreakthedeadlock.Zakaria:WhatactionwouldyouliketoseefromtheDalaiLamathatwouldshowsincerity?WenJiabao:Actually,Ialreadymadeitclearthatwhenweobserveanyindividual,theDalaiLamaincluded,weshouldnotonlywatchwhat,weshouldnotonlyobservewhathesays,butalsowatchwhathedoes.Hissinceritycanbedemonstratedingivingupseparatistactivities.Zakaria:Andthenyoumightmeetwithhim?WenJiabao:Bythen,everythingdependsonthedevelopmentofthesituation.Ofcourse,talksmaycontinue,andinlightoftheprogressinthetalks,wemayalsoconsiderraisingthelevelofthetalks.Zakaria:PremierWen,yourcountryhasgrown,asyoupointedout,9?percentfor30years--fastestgrowthrateofanycountryinhistory.Ifpeoplecometoyouandsaytoyou,WhatistheChinesemodelofsucceedingasadevelopingcountry?Whatwouldyousay?Whatisthekeytoyoursuccess?Whatisthemodel?WenJiabao:Itseasytoanswerthisquestion,thatyoumaythinkaboutthisthing--thatabout30yearsago,whyChinawasnotabletogrowasfastasithasinthefollowingyears.IthinkthisisattributabletothereformsandopeningWenJiabao:Chinanowhasover200millionInternetusers,andthefreedomofInternetinChinaisrecognizedbymany,evenfromthewest.Nonetheless,toupholdstatesecurity,China,likemanycountriesintheworld,hasalsoimposedsomeproperrestrictions.Thatisforthesafety,thatisfortheoverallsafetyofthecountryandforthefreedomofthemajorityofthepeople.IcanalsotellyouontheInternetinChina,youcanhaveaccesstoalotofpostingsthatarequitecriticalaboutthegovernment.ItisexactlythroughreadingthesecriticalopinionsontheInternetthatwetrytolocateproblemsandfurtherimproveourwork.Inthefirsthalfofthisyear,orgiventhestatisticsforthefirsteightmonthsofthisyear,wecanseethatwehavemanagedtodothat.ApossibleU.S.economicrecessionwillcertainlyhaveanimpactontheChinaeconomy.Asweknowthat10yearsago,theChina-U.S.tradevolumestoodatonly$102.6billionU.S.,whiletodaythefiguressoarto$302billionU.S.,actuallyrepresentinganincreaseof1.5-fold.AshrinkingofU.S.demandwillcertainlyhaveanimpactonChinasexport.AndtheU.S.financeiscloselyconnectedwiththeChinesefinance.IfanythinggoeswrongintheU.S.financialsector,weareanxiousaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesecapital.ThatswhyintheverybeginningIhavemadeitclearthatthefinancialproblemsinthiscountrynotonlyconcernstheinterestsoftheUnitedStatesbutalsothatofChinaandtheworldatlarge.Zakaria:Thereisanothersenseinwhichweareinterdependent.ChinaisthelargestholderofU.S.Treasurybills.Bysomeaccounts,theyreworthalmost$1trillion.ItmakessomeAmericansuneasy.CanyoureassurethemthatChinawouldneverusethisstatusasaweaponinsomeway?WenJiabao:AsIsaid,webelievethattheU.S.realeconomyisstillsolidlybased.Particularlythehigh-techindustriesandthebasicindustries.Now,somethinghasgonewronginthevirtualeconomy,butifthisproblemisproperlyaddressed,thenitisstillpossibletostabilizetheeconomyinthiscountry.TheChinesegovernmenthopesverymuchthattheU.S.sidewillbeabletostabilizeitseconomyandfinanceasquicklyaspossible,andwealsohopetoseesustaineddevelopmentintheUnitedStatesasthatwillbenefitChina.Ofcourse,weareconcernedaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesemoneyhere.ButwebelievethattheUnitedStatesisacrediblecountryandparticularlyatsuchdifficulttimes,ChinahasreachedouttotheUnitedStates.Andactuallywebelievesuchahelpinghandwillhelpstabilizetheentireglobaleconomyandfinanceandtopreventamajorchaosfromoccurringintheglobaleconomicandfinancialsystem.Ibelievenowcooperationiseverything.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutChinasroleinabroadersense?ManypeopleseeChinaasasuperpoweralready,andtheywonder:whyisitnotbeingmoreactiveinpoliticalresolutionofissuessuchastheissueofDarfurortheissueofIrananditsnuclearambitions?ThereisahopethatChinawillplayaroleasaresponsiblestakeholder,touseRobertZoellicksphrasewhenhewasdeputysecretaryofstate,andthatChinawillbemoreactiveinmanagingthepoliticalproblemsintheworld,andthatsofarithasnotbeenactive.Howwouldyoureacttothat?WenJiabao:Toanswerthisquestion,Ineedtocorrectsomeoftheelementsinyourquestionfirst.ChinaisNOTasuperpower.AlthoughChinahasapopulationof1.3billionandalthoughinrecentyearsChinahasregisteredfairlyfasteconomicandsocialdevelopmentsincereformandopeningup,ChinastillhasthisproblemofunbalanceddevelopmentbetweendifferentregionsandbetweenChinasurbanandruralareas.Chinaremainsadevelopingcountry.Westillhave800millionfarmersinruralareas,andwestillhavedozensofmillionpeoplelivinginpoverty.Asamatteroffact,over60millionpeopleinruralandurbanareasinChinastillliveonallowancesforbasiclivingcostsinmycountry.Andeachyear,weneedtotakecareofabout23millionunemployedinurbanareasandabout200millionfarmerscomeandgotocitiestofindjobsinChina.Weneedtomakecommittedandveryearnesteffortstoaddressalltheseproblems.Toaddressourownproblems,weneedtodoagreatdeal.Chinaisnotasuperpower.Thatswhyweneedtofocusonourowndevelopmentandonoureffortstoimprovepeopleslives.Zakaria:ButsurelytheChinesegovernmentcouldpressuretheSudanesegovernmentortheIraniangovernmentorthegovernmentinBurmatobelessrepressive.Youhaverelationswithallthreeofthem.WenJiabao:Thatbringsmetoyoursecondquestion.Actuallyintheinternationalcommunity,Chinaisajustice-upholdingcountry.Wenevertradeourprinciples.TaketheDarfurissuethatyouraisedjustnowforexample.Chinahasalwaysadvocatedthatweneedtoadoptadual-trackapproachtoseekasolutiontotheDarfurissue.Chinawasamongthefirstcountriessendingpeace-keeperstoDarfur.ChinawasalsothefirstcountrythatgaveassistancetoSudanandwealsokeepoureffortstoengagetheleadersinSudantotrytoseekapeacefulsolutiontotheissueasquicklyaspossible.Zakaria:DoyouthinkitwouldbedangerousfortheworldifIrangotnuclearweapons?Andwhatdoyouthinktheworldshoulddototrytostopthatpossibility?WenJiabao:WearenotsupportiveofanuclearrisetoIran.WebelievethatIranhastherighttodevelopautilizationofnuclearenergyinapeacefulway.Butsucheffortsshouldbesubjecttothesafeguardsofthe[InternationalAtomicEnergyAgency],andIranshouldnotdevelopnuclearweapons.AsfarastheIraniannuclearissueisconcerned,Chinasstanceisclear-cut.Wehopethatthroughpromotingthetalksconcerningthisissue,thatwewillbeabletoencouragetheIranianauthoritiestogiveupanyideatodevelopnuclearweaponsandacceptIAEAsafeguards.Nonetheless,wehopethatwecanusepeacefultalkstoachievethepurpose,ratherthanresorttothewillfuluseofforceortheintimIdon'tthinkasystemoragovernmentshouldfearcriticalopinionsorviews.Onlybyheedingthosecriticalviewswoulditbepossibleforustofurtherimproveourworkandmakefurtherprogress.IfrequentlybrowsetheInternettolearnaboutasituation.developmentofdemocracyinChina,weneedtotakeintoaccountChinasnationalconditions,andweneedtointroduceasystemthatsuitsChinasspecialfeatures,andweneedtointroduceagradualapproach.Zakaria:PeoplesayyourestudyingtheJapanesesystembecausetheresdemocracybuttheresonlyonepartythatseemstowintheelections.IsthatthekindofmodelyouseeforChina?WenJiabao:Ithinktherearemultipleformsofdemocracyintheworld.Whatisimportantisthesubstanceofdemocracy.Whichmeansthatattheendoftheday,whatisimportantaboutdemocracyisthatwhethersuchformofdemocracycanreallyrepresentthecallingandinterestofthepeople.SocialismasIunderstanditisasystemofdemocracy.Withoutdemocracy,thereisnosocialism.Andsuchademocracyfirstandforemostshouldservetoensurepeoplesrighttodemocraticelections,oversightanddecisionmaking.Suchademocracyshouldalsohelppeopletofullydevelopthemselvesinanall-aroundwayinanenvironmentfeaturingfreedomandequality.Andsuchademocracyshouldbebasedonafull-fledgedlegalsystem.Otherwise,therewouldbechaos.Thatswhyweneedtorunthecountryaccordingtolawandensurethateveryoneisequalunderthelaw.Zakaria:Wevetalkedaboutelectionsmanytimes.Doyouthinkin25yearstherewillbenationalelectionsinwhichtherewillbeacompetition,therewillbeperhapstwoparties,thatwillberunningforapositionsuchasyourown?WenJiabao:Itshardformetopredictwhatwillhappenin25yearstime.Thisbeingsaid,Ihavethisconviction--thatChinasdemocracywillcontinuetogrow.In20to30yearstime,thewholeChinesesocietywillbemoredemocraticandfairer,andthelegalsysteminChinawillfurtherbeimproved.Thesocialismasweseeitwillfurthermatureandimprove.Zakaria:Letmeaskyou,premier,finallyacoupleofquestionsthatarepersonal.YouvesaidthatyouvereadtheworksofMarcusAureliusahundredtimes.MarcusAureliusisafamousstoicphilosopher.Myreadingofhimsaysthatoneshouldnotbeinvolvedintheself,andinanykindofpursuitsthatareself-interestedbutshouldbemoreforthecommunityasawhole.WhenIgotoChinathesedays,Iamstruckbyhowmuchindividualismthereis,howmuchconsumerismthereis.AreyoutryingtosendasignaltotheChinesepeopletothinklessaboutthemselvesandmoreaboutthecommunity?WenJiabao:ItistrueIdidreadthemeditationswrittenbyMarcusAureliusAntonioonmanyoccasions,andIwasverydeeplyimpressedbythewordsthathewroteinthebook--tobefact-wherearethosepeoplethatweregreatforatime?Theyareallgone,leavingonlyastory,orsomeevenjusthalfastory.SoIdrawtheconclusionthatonlypeopleareinthepositiontocreatehistoryandwritehistory.Iverymuchvaluemorality,andIdobelievethatentrepreneurs,economistsandstatesmenalikeshouldpaymuchmoreattentiontomoralityandethics.Inmymind,thehigheststandardtomeasuretheethicsandmoralityisjustice.ThatswhyinthemorningwhenIansweredthequestion,IsaidthatIbelieveintheveinsoftheeconomist,weshouldseethebloodofmorality.Whenwethinkabouteconomy,wethinkmoreabouttherealelementsconcerningthecompany,thecapital,themarket,thetechnology,soonandsoforth.Andwemightforgetabouttheothersortofelementsthatworkbehindthescene,andthesefactorsarealsoaffectedbythevisiblefactorslikeconvictionandmorality.Onlywhenwecombinethesetwokindsoffactors,canweputinplaceafullpictureoftheDNAoftheeconomy.ItistrueinthecourseofChinaseconomicdevelopment,somecompanieshaveactuallypursuedtheirprofitsattheexpenseofmoralityandwewillneverallowsuchthingstohappen.Wewillnotalloweconomicgrowthattheexpenseofthelossofmoralitybecausesuchapproachsimplycannotsustain.Thatswhyweadvocatethecorporate,occupationalandsocialethics.Zakaria:Letmeaskyouafinalquestion,yourexcellency.YoumusthavebeenwatchingtheAmericanelection.Whatisyourreactiontothestrangeraceandelectionthatwearehavinginthiscountry?WenJiabao:ThepresidentialelectionoftheUnitedStatesshouldbedecidedbytheAmericanpeople.ButwhatIfollowverycloselyistherelationshipbetweenChinaandtheUnitedStatesaftertheelection.Inrecentyears,therehasbeenasoundgrowthmomentuminthegrowthofChina-U.S.relations.Andwehope,andwhoeveriselectedasthepresidentandwhoeverissworninintotheWhiteHouse,nomatterwhichpartywinstheelection,thatheorsheandthepartieswillcontinuetogrowtherelationshipwithChina.AndChinahopestocontinuetoimproveandgrowitsrelationshipwiththeUnitedStatesnomatterwhowilltakeofficeandleadthenewadministrationinthiscountry.Zakaria:Onthathappynote,Ithankyou,yourexcellency.Imsureyourpeopleareworriedwetookalittleextratime.AndIthankyouinadvanceforyourkindnessandyourfrankness.Zakaria:Whatareyourfavoritesites?WenJiabao:I'vebrowsedalotofInternetWebsites.idationofforce.Itsliketreatingtherelationshipbetweentwoindividuals.Ifoneindividualtriestocornertheother,thentheeffectwillbecounterproductive.Thatwilldonothinginhelpingresolvetheproblem.Ourpurposeistoresolvetheproblem,nottoescalatetensions.AndIalsohaveaquestionforyou:DontyouthinkthattheeffortsmadebyChinainresolvingtheKoreannuclearissueandpositionwehaveadoptedinthisregardhaveactuallyhelpedthesituationontheKoreanpeninsulamoveforthebetterdaybyday?And,ofcourse,IknowthatitstilltakestimetoseekathoroughandcompletesolutiontotheKoreannuclearissue,andonthatbasistohelpputinplacethesecurityandstabilityinNortheastAsia.But,whatIdliketostressisthatthemodelthatwehaveadopted,andtheeffortswehavemade,provetoberightinthis,inthisdirection.Zakaria:Sinceyouhonoredmebyaskingthequestion,Iwillsaytoyou,premier,thatChinaseffortsinNorthKoreahavebeenappreciatedintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworld.AndofcourseitmakespeoplewishthatChinawouldbeactiveinotherareasinjustthesameproductivewaythatitwasinNorthKoreabecauseweseethatitproducesresults.WenJiabao:Wehavegainedalotofexperienceandlearnedlessonsfromyearsofnegotiationsconcerningthesix-partytalks,andtheprogressmadeinthesix-partytalksalsohasalottodowiththeclosecooperationamongthesixparties.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutanothersetofpossibletalks?TheDalaiLamahassaidnowitappearsthathewouldacceptChinasruleinTibet,heacceptsthesocialistsysteminTibet,andwhatheasksforisculturalautonomyandacertaindegreeofpoliticalautonomy.ThetalksapparentlyarestuckatalowerlevelbetweentheTibetansandtheChinesegovernment.Whydontyou,givenyourpowerandyournegotiatingskills,taketheissueyourself--andyouorPresidentHuJintaowouldnegotiatedirectlywiththeDalaiLamaandsolvethisissueonceandforallforthebenefitoftheChinesepeople,andofcoursetheTibetanpeoplewhoarealsoinChina?WenJiabao:OurissuewiththeDalaiLamaisnotaethnic,religiousorculturalissueintheordinarysense.Itsamajorprincipledissueconcerningsafeguardingthecountrysunityorallowingeffortstoseparateacountry.Andwemustadoptatwo-prongedapproachinviewingtheDalaiLama.Ononehand,itistruethattheDalaiisareligiousleader,andheenjoyscertaininfluenceintheTibetanregion,andparticularlyinregionsthattheinhabitantsbelieveinBuddhism.And,ontheotherhand,wemustalsobeawarethatheisnotanordinaryreligiousfigure.Theso-calledgovernmentinexilefoundedbytheDalaiLamapracticesatheocraticrule.Andthepurposeofthisso-calledgovernmentinexileistoseparateTibetfromChina.Inmanyplacesallovertheworld,theDalaiLamakeepspreachingabouttheideaofaso-calledautonomyinthegreaterTibetanregion.Andactually,theso-calledautonomythathepursuesisactuallytousereligiontointerveneinpolitics.Theywanttoseparatetheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionfromthemotherland.AndmanypeopleintheUnitedStateshavenoideahowbigistheso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,theso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,preachedbytheDalaiLama,actuallycoversTibet,Sichuan,Yunnan,QinghaiandGansu--altogetherfiveprovinces.Andtheareacoveredbytheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionaccountsforaquarterofChinasterritory.Fordecades,ourpolicytowardstheDalaiLamaremainsunchanged:thatis,aslongastheDalaiLamaiswillingtorecognizethatTibetisaninalienablepartofChinasterritory,andaslongastheDalaiLamagivesuphisseparatistactivities,werewillingtohavecontactandtalkswithhimorhisrepresentatives.Now,sincerityholdsthekeytoproducingresultoutofthetalks.AftertheTibetincidentbackinthe1950s,thehighestleaderofthecentralgovernment,Mr.DengXiaoping,alsomettherepresentativesoftheDalaiLama.So,Idontthinkthereisthisproblem,aswhetherIcanhavecontactwiththeDalaiLama.Therealkeyliesintheeffectivenessofsuchcontactandtalks.Wehopethathecanuserealactionstoshowsincerityandbreakthedeadlock.Zakaria:WhatactionwouldyouliketoseefromtheDalaiLamathatwouldshowsincerity?WenJiabao:Actually,Ialreadymadeitclearthatwhenweobserveanyindividual,theDalaiLamaincluded,weshouldnotonlywatchwhat,weshouldnotonlyobservewhathesays,butalsowatchwhathedoes.Hissinceritycanbedemonstratedingivingupseparatistactivities.Zakaria:Andthenyoumightmeetwithhim?WenJiabao:Bythen,everythingdependsonthedevelopmentofthesituation.Ofcourse,talksmaycontinue,andinlightoftheprogressinthetalks,wemayalsoconsiderraisingthelevelofthetalks.Zakaria:PremierWen,yourcountryhasgrown,asyoupointedout,9?percentfor30years--fastestgrowthrateofanycountryinhistory.Ifpeoplecometoyouandsaytoyou,WhatistheChinesemodelofsucceedingasadevelopingcountry?Whatwouldyousay?Whatisthekeytoyoursuccess?Whatisthemodel?WenJiabao:Itseasytoanswerthisquestion,thatyoumaythinkaboutthisthing--thatabout30yearsago,whyChinawasnotabletogrowasfastasithasinthefollowingyears.IthinkthisisattributabletothereformsandopeningZakaria:Iwilltakeadvantageofyourkindnessandaskyouaquestionthatmanypeoplearoundtheworldwonderabout.ThereisaveryfamousphotographofyouatTiananmensquarein1989.Whatlessondidyoutakefromyourexperiencesindealingwiththatproblemin1989?upapolicyweintroducedin1978.ThisholdsthekeytoChinassuccess.Byintroducingreformandopeningup,wehavegreatlyemancipatedproductivityinChina.Wehaveoneimportantthought:thatsocialismcanalsopracticemarketeconomy.Zakaria:Peoplethinkthatsacontradiction.Youhavethemarketeconomy,wherethemarketallocatesresources,andinsocialism,itsallcentralplanning.Howdoyoumakebothwork?WenJiabao:Thecompleteformulationofoureconomicpolicyistogivefullplaytothebasicroleofmarketforcesinallocatingresourcesunderthemacroeconomicguidanceandregulationofthegovernment.Wehaveoneimportantpieceofexperienceofthepast30years:thatistoensurethatboththevisiblehandandtheinvisiblehandaregivenfullplayinregulatingthemarketforces.IfyouarefamiliarwiththeclassicalworksofAdamSmith,youwillknowthattherearetwofamousworksofhis.OneisTheWealthofNations;theotheristhebookonthemoralityandethics.And,TheWealthofNationsdealsmorewiththeinvisiblehandthatarethemarketforces.Andtheotherbookdealswithsocialequityandjustice.Andintheotherbookhewrote,hestressedtheimportanceofplayingtheregulatoryroleofthegovernmenttofurtherdistributethewealthamongthepeople.Ifinacountry,mostofthewealthisconcentratedinthehandsofthefew,thenthiscountrycanhardlywitnessharmonyandstability.ThesameapproachalsoappliestothecurrentU.S.economy.Toaddressthecurrenteconomicandfinancialproblemsinthiscountry,weneedtoapplynotonlythevisiblehandbutalsotheinvisiblehand.Zakaria:MayIaskyou--someAmericansandEuropeans,particularlyhumanrightsobservers,saythatChinahascrackeddownonhumanrightsoverthelastfewyears,thattheyhadbeenhopingthattheOlympicswouldleadtoanopeningofChina,butthatithas,therehasbeenmorerepression.Howwouldyourespondtothat?WenJiabao:ByhostingtheOlympicGames,Chinahasactuallybecomemoreopen.Anyonewithoutbiaseswillsee--haveseenthat.InthefreedomofspeechandthefreedominnewsmediacoverageareguaranteedinChina.TheChinesegovernmentattachesimportanceto,andprotects,humanrights.WehaveincorporatedtheselinesintotheChineseconstitution,andwealsoimplementthestipulationinrealearnest.Ithinkforanygovernment,whatismostimportant,istoensurethatitspeopleenjoyeachandeveryrightgiventothembytheconstitution.Includingtheirrighttosurvival,freedomandtopursuetheirhappiness.Wedontthinkthatweareimpeccableintermsofhumanrights.Itistruethatinsomeplacesandinsomeareas,wedohaveproblemsofthiskindorthatkind.Nonetheless,wearecontinuingtomakeeffortstomakeimprovements,andwewanttofurtherimprovehumanrightsinourcountry.Zakaria:WhenIgotoChinaandIminahotelandItypeinthewordsTiananmenSquareinmycomputer,Igetafirewall,whatsomepeoplecalltheGreatFirewallofChina.CanyoubeanadvancedsocietyifyoudonthavefreedomofinformationtofindoutinformationontheInternet?WenJiabao:Chinanowhasover200millionInternetusers,andthefreedomofInternetinChinaisrecognizedbymany,evenfromthewest.Nonetheless,toupholdstatesecurity,China,likemanycountriesintheworld,hasalsoimposedsomeproperrestrictions.Thatisforthesafety,thatisfortheoverallsafetyofthecountryandforthefreedomofthemajorityofthepeople.IcanalsotellyouontheInternetinChina,youcanhaveaccesstoalotofpostingsthatarequitecriticalaboutthegovernment.ItisexactlythroughreadingthesecriticalopinionsontheInternetthatwetrytolocateproblemsandfurtherimproveourwork.Idontthinkasystemoragovernmentshouldfearcriticalopinionsorviews.Onlybyheedingthosecriticalviewswoulditbepossibleforustofurtherimproveourworkandmakefurtherprogress.IfrequentlybrowsetheInternettolearnaboutasituation.Zakaria:Whatareyourfavoritesites?WenJiabao:IvebrowsedalotofInternetWebsites.Zakaria:Iwilltakeadvantageofyourkindnessandaskyouaquestionthatmanypeoplearoundtheworldwonderabout.ThereisaveryfamousphotographofyouatTiananmensquarein1989.Whatlessondidyoutakefromyourexperiencesindealingwiththatproblemin1989?WenJiabao:Ibelievethatwhilemovingaheadwitheconomicreforms,wealsoneedtoadvancepoliticalreforms,asourdevelopmentiscomprehensiveinnature,ourreformshouldalsobecomprehensive.IthinkthecoreofyourquestionisaboutthedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina.IbelievewhenitcomestothedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina,wetalkaboutprogresstobemadeinthreeareas:No.1:WeneedtograduallyimprovethedemocraticelectionsystemsothatstatepowerwilltrulybelongtothepeopleandstatepowerwillbeusedtoservethepeopleNo.2:Weneedtoimprovethelegalsystem,runthecountryaccordingtolaw,andestablishthecountryundertheruleoflawandweneedtoviewanindependentandjustjudicialsystem.No.3:Governmentshouldbesubjecttooversightbythepeopleandthatwillaskus,callonustoincreasetransparencyingovernmentaffairsandparticularlyitisalsonecessaryforgovernmenttoacceptoversightbythenewsmediaandotherparties.ThereisalsoanotherimportantaspectthatwhenitcomestoWenJiabao:Ibelievethatwhilemovingaheadwitheconomicreforms,wealsoneedtoadvancepoliticalreforms,asourdevelopmentiscomprehensiveinnature,ourreformshouldalsobecomprehensive.IthinkthecoreofyourquestionisaboutthedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina.IbelievewhenitcomestothedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina,wetalkaboutprogresstobemadeinthreeareas:No.1:Weneedtograduallyimprovethedemocraticelectionsystemsothatstatepowerwilltrulybelongtothepeopleandstatepowerwillbeusedtoservethepeopleidationofforce.Itsliketreatingtherelationshipbetweentwoindividuals.Ifoneindividualtriestocornertheother,thentheeffectwillbecounterproductive.Thatwilldonothinginhelpingresolvetheproblem.Ourpurposeistoresolvetheproblem,nottoescalatetensions.AndIalsohaveaquestionforyou:DontyouthinkthattheeffortsmadebyChinainresolvingtheKoreannuclearissueandpositionwehaveadoptedinthisregardhaveactuallyhelpedthesituationontheKoreanpeninsulamoveforthebetterdaybyday?And,ofcourse,IknowthatitstilltakestimetoseekathoroughandcompletesolutiontotheKoreannuclearissue,andonthatbasistohelpputinplacethesecurityandstabilityinNortheastAsia.But,whatIdliketostressisthatthemodelthatwehaveadopted,andtheeffortswehavemade,provetoberightinthis,inthisdirection.Zakaria:Sinceyouhonoredmebyaskingthequestion,Iwillsaytoyou,premier,thatChinaseffortsinNorthKoreahavebeenappreciatedintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworld.AndofcourseitmakespeoplewishthatChinawouldbeactiveinotherareasinjustthesameproductivewaythatitwasinNorthKoreabecauseweseethatitproducesresults.WenJiabao:Wehavegainedalotofexperienceandlearnedlessonsfromyearsofnegotiationsconcerningthesix-partytalks,andtheprogressmadeinthesix-partytalksalsohasalottodowiththeclosecooperationamongthesixparties.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutanothersetofpossibletalks?TheDalaiLamahassaidnowitappearsthathewouldacceptChinasruleinTibet,heacceptsthesocialistsysteminTibet,andwhatheasksforisculturalautonomyandacertaindegreeofpoliticalautonomy.ThetalksapparentlyarestuckatalowerlevelbetweentheTibetansandtheChinesegovernment.Whydontyou,givenyourpowerandyournegotiatingskills,taketheissueyourself--andyouorPresidentHuJintaowouldnegotiatedirectlywiththeDalaiLamaandsolvethisissueonceandforallforthebenefitoftheChinesepeople,andofcoursetheTibetanpeoplewhoarealsoinChina?WenJiabao:OurissuewiththeDalaiLamaisnotaethnic,religiousorculturalissueintheordinarysense.Itsamajorprincipledissueconcerningsafeguardingthecountrysunityorallowingeffortstoseparateacountry.Andwemustadoptatwo-prongedapproachinviewingtheDalaiLama.Ononehand,itistruethattheDalaiisareligiousleader,andheenjoyscertaininfluenceintheTibetanregion,andparticularlyinregionsthattheinhabitantsbelieveinBuddhism.And,ontheotherhand,wemustalsobeawarethatheisnotanordinaryreligiousfigure.Theso-calledgovernmentinexilefoundedbytheDalaiLamapracticesatheocraticrule.Andthepurposeofthisso-calledgovernmentinexileistoseparateTibetfromChina.Inmanyplacesallovertheworld,theDalaiLamakeepspreachingabouttheideaofaso-calledautonomyinthegreaterTibetanregion.Andactually,theso-calledautonomythathepursuesisactuallytousereligiontointerveneinpolitics.Theywanttoseparatetheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionfromthemotherland.AndmanypeopleintheUnitedStateshavenoideahowbigistheso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,theso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,preachedbytheDalaiLama,actuallycoversTibet,Sichuan,Yunnan,QinghaiandGansu--altogetherfiveprovinces.Andtheareacoveredbytheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionaccountsforaquarterofChinasterritory.Fordecades,ourpolicytowardstheDalaiLamaremainsunchanged:thatis,aslongastheDalaiLamaiswillingtorecognizethatTibetisaninalienablepartofChinasterritory,andaslongastheDalaiLamagivesuphisseparatistactivities,werewillingtohavecontactandtalkswithhimorhisrepresentatives.Now,sincerityholdsthekeytoproducingresultoutofthetalks.AftertheTibetincidentbackinthe1950s,thehighestleaderofthecentralgovernment,Mr.DengXiaoping,alsomettherepresentativesoftheDalaiLama.So,Idontthinkthereisthisproblem,aswhetherIcanhavecontactwiththeDalaiLama.Therealkeyliesintheeffectivenessofsuchcontactandtalks.Wehopethathecanuserealactionstoshowsincerityandbreakthedeadlock.Zakaria:WhatactionwouldyouliketoseefromtheDalaiLamathatwouldshowsincerity?WenJiabao:Actually,Ialreadymadeitclearthatwhenweobserveanyindividual,theDalaiLamaincluded,weshouldnotonlywatchwhat,weshouldnotonlyobservewhathesays,butalsowatchwhathedoes.Hissinceritycanbedemonstratedingivingupseparatistactivities.Zakaria:Andthenyoumightmeetwithhim?WenJiabao:Bythen,everythingdependsonthedevelopmentofthesituation.Ofcourse,talksmaycontinue,andinlightoftheprogressinthetalks,wemayalsoconsiderraisingthelevelofthetalks.Zakaria:PremierWen,yourcountryhasgrown,asyoupointedout,9?percentfor30years--fastestgrowthrateofanycountryinhistory.Ifpeoplecometoyouandsaytoyou,WhatistheChinesemodelofsucceedingasadevelopingcountry?Whatwouldyousay?Whatisthekeytoyoursuccess?Whatisthemodel?WenJiabao:Itseasytoanswerthisquestion,thatyoumaythinkaboutthisthing--thatabout30yearsago,whyChinawasnotabletogrowasfastasithasinthefollowingyears.IthinkthisisattributabletothereformsandopeningNo.2:Weneedtoimprovethelegalsystem,runthecountryaccordingtolaw,andestablishthecountryundertheruleoflawandweneedtoviewanindependentandjustjudicialsystem.No.3:Governmentshouldbesubjecttooversightbythepeopleandthatwillaskus,callonustoincreasetransparencyingovernmentaffairsandparticularlyitisalsonecessaryforgovernmenttoacceptoversightbythenewsmediaandotherparties.ThereisalsoanotherimportantaspectthatwhenitcomestodevelopmentofdemocracyinChina,weneedtotakeintoaccountChina'snationalconditions,andweneedtointroduceasystemthatsuitsChina'sspecialfeatures,andweneedtointroduceagradualapproach.developmentofdemocracyinChina,weneedtotakeintoaccountChinasnationalconditions,andweneedtointroduceasystemthatsuitsChinasspecialfeatures,andweneedtointroduceagradualapproach.Zakaria:PeoplesayyourestudyingtheJapanesesystembecausetheresdemocracybuttheresonlyonepartythatseemstowintheelections.IsthatthekindofmodelyouseeforChina?WenJiabao:Ithinktherearemultipleformsofdemocracyintheworld.Whatisimportantisthesubstanceofdemocracy.Whichmeansthatattheendoftheday,whatisimportantaboutdemocracyisthatwhethersuchformofdemocracycanreallyrepresentthecallingandinterestofthepeople.SocialismasIunderstanditisasystemofdemocracy.Withoutdemocracy,thereisnosocialism.Andsuchademocracyfirstandforemostshouldservetoensurepeoplesrighttodemocraticelections,oversightanddecisionmaking.Suchademocracyshouldalsohelppeopletofullydevelopthemselvesinanall-aroundwayinanenvironmentfeaturingfreedomandequality.Andsuchademocracyshouldbebasedonafull-fledgedlegalsystem.Otherwise,therewouldbechaos.Thatswhyweneedtorunthecountryaccordingtolawandensurethateveryoneisequalunderthelaw.Zakaria:Wevetalkedaboutelectionsmanytimes.Doyouthinkin25yearstherewillbenationalelectionsinwhichtherewillbeacompetition,therewillbeperhapstwoparties,thatwillberunningforapositionsuchasyourown?WenJiabao:Itshardformetopredictwhatwillhappenin25yearstime.Thisbeingsaid,Ihavethisconviction--thatChinasdemocracywillcontinuetogrow.In20to30yearstime,thewholeChinesesocietywillbemoredemocraticandfairer,andthelegalsysteminChinawillfurtherbeimproved.Thesocialismasweseeitwillfurthermatureandimprove.Zakaria:Letmeaskyou,premier,finallyacoupleofquestionsthatarepersonal.YouvesaidthatyouvereadtheworksofMarcusAureliusahundredtimes.MarcusAureliusisafamousstoicphilosopher.Myreadingofhimsaysthatoneshouldnotbeinvolvedintheself,andinanykindofpursuitsthatareself-interestedbutshouldbemoreforthecommunityasawhole.WhenIgotoChinathesedays,Iamstruckbyhowmuchindividualismthereis,howmuchconsumerismthereis.AreyoutryingtosendasignaltotheChinesepeopletothinklessaboutthemselvesandmoreaboutthecommunity?WenJiabao:ItistrueIdidreadthemeditationswrittenbyMarcusAureliusAntonioonmanyoccasions,andIwasverydeeplyimpressedbythewordsthathewroteinthebook--tobefact-wherearethosepeoplethatweregreatforatime?Theyareallgone,leavingonlyastory,orsomeevenjusthalfastory.SoIdrawtheconclusionthatonlypeopleareinthepositiontocreatehistoryandwritehistory.Iverymuchvaluemorality,andIdobelievethatentrepreneurs,economistsandstatesmenalikeshouldpaymuchmoreattentiontomoralityandethics.Inmymind,thehigheststandardtomeasuretheethicsandmoralityisjustice.ThatswhyinthemorningwhenIansweredthequestion,IsaidthatIbelieveintheveinsoftheeconomist,weshouldseethebloodofmorality.Whenwethinkabouteconomy,wethinkmoreabouttherealelementsconcerningthecompany,thecapital,themarket,thetechnology,soonandsoforth.Andwemightforgetabouttheothersortofelementsthatworkbehindthescene,andthesefactorsarealsoaffectedbythevisiblefactorslikeconvictionandmorality.Onlywhenwecombinethesetwokindsoffactors,canweputinplaceafullpictureoftheDNAoftheeconomy.ItistrueinthecourseofChinaseconomicdevelopment,somecompanieshaveactuallypursuedtheirprofitsattheexpenseofmoralityandwewillneverallowsuchthingstohappen.Wewillnotalloweconomicgrowthattheexpenseofthelossofmoralitybecausesuchapproachsimplycannotsustain.Thatswhyweadvocatethecorporate,occupationalandsocialethics.Zakaria:Letmeaskyouafinalquestion,yourexcellency.YoumusthavebeenwatchingtheAmericanelection.Whatisyourreactiontothestrangeraceandelectionthatwearehavinginthiscountry?WenJiabao:ThepresidentialelectionoftheUnitedStatesshouldbedecidedbytheAmericanpeople.ButwhatIfollowverycloselyistherelationshipbetweenChinaandtheUnitedStatesaftertheelection.Inrecentyears,therehasbeenasoundgrowthmomentuminthegrowthofChina-U.S.relations.Andwehope,andwhoeveriselectedasthepresidentandwhoeverissworninintotheWhiteHouse,nomatterwhichpartywinstheelection,thatheorsheandthepartieswillcontinuetogrowtherelationshipwithChina.AndChinahopestocontinuetoimproveandgrowitsrelationshipwiththeUnitedStatesnomatterwhowilltakeofficeandleadthenewadministrationinthiscountry.Zakaria:Onthathappynote,Ithankyou,yourexcellency.Imsureyourpeopleareworriedwetookalittleextratime.AndIthankyouinadvanceforyourkindnessandyourfrankness.Zakaria:Peoplesayyou'restudyingtheJapanesesystembecausethere'sdemocracybutthere'sonlyonepartythatseemstowintheelections.IsthatthekindofmodelyouseeforChina?upapolicyweintroducedin1978.ThisholdsthekeytoChinassuccess.Byintroducingreformandopeningup,wehavegreatlyemancipatedproductivityinChina.Wehaveoneimportantthought:thatsocialismcanalsopracticemarketeconomy.Zakaria:Peoplethinkthatsacontradiction.Youhavethemarketeconomy,wherethemarketallocatesresources,andinsocialism,itsallcentralplanning.Howdoyoumakebothwork?WenJiabao:Thecompleteformulationofoureconomicpolicyistogivefullplaytothebasicroleofmarketforcesinallocatingresourcesunderthemacroeconomicguidanceandregulationofthegovernment.Wehaveoneimportantpieceofexperienceofthepast30years:thatistoensurethatboththevisiblehandandtheinvisiblehandaregivenfullplayinregulatingthemarketforces.IfyouarefamiliarwiththeclassicalworksofAdamSmith,youwillknowthattherearetwofamousworksofhis.OneisTheWealthofNations;theotheristhebookonthemoralityandethics.And,TheWealthofNationsdealsmorewiththeinvisiblehandthatarethemarketforces.Andtheotherbookdealswithsocialequityandjustice.Andintheotherbookhewrote,hestressedtheimportanceofplayingtheregulatoryroleofthegovernmenttofurtherdistributethewealthamongthepeople.Ifinacountry,mostofthewealthisconcentratedinthehandsofthefew,thenthiscountrycanhardlywitnessharmonyandstability.ThesameapproachalsoappliestothecurrentU.S.economy.Toaddressthecurrenteconomicandfinancialproblemsinthiscountry,weneedtoapplynotonlythevisiblehandbutalsotheinvisiblehand.Zakaria:MayIaskyou--someAmericansandEuropeans,particularlyhumanrightsobservers,saythatChinahascrackeddownonhumanrightsoverthelastfewyears,thattheyhadbeenhopingthattheOlympicswouldleadtoanopeningofChina,butthatithas,therehasbeenmorerepression.Howwouldyourespondtothat?WenJiabao:ByhostingtheOlympicGames,Chinahasactuallybecomemoreopen.Anyonewithoutbiaseswillsee--haveseenthat.InthefreedomofspeechandthefreedominnewsmediacoverageareguaranteedinChina.TheChinesegovernmentattachesimportanceto,andprotects,humanrights.WehaveincorporatedtheselinesintotheChineseconstitution,andwealsoimplementthestipulationinrealearnest.Ithinkforanygovernment,whatismostimportant,istoensurethatitspeopleenjoyeachandeveryrightgiventothembytheconstitution.Includingtheirrighttosurvival,freedomandtopursuetheirhappiness.Wedontthinkthatweareimpeccableintermsofhumanrights.Itistruethatinsomeplacesandinsomeareas,wedohaveproblemsofthiskindorthatkind.Nonetheless,wearecontinuingtomakeeffortstomakeimprovements,andwewanttofurtherimprovehumanrightsinourcountry.Zakaria:WhenIgotoChinaandIminahotelandItypeinthewordsTiananmenSquareinmycomputer,Igetafirewall,whatsomepeoplecalltheGreatFirewallofChina.CanyoubeanadvancedsocietyifyoudonthavefreedomofinformationtofindoutinformationontheInternet?WenJiabao:Chinanowhasover200millionInternetusers,andthefreedomofInternetinChinaisrecognizedbymany,evenfromthewest.Nonetheless,toupholdstatesecurity,China,likemanycountriesintheworld,hasalsoimposedsomeproperrestrictions.Thatisforthesafety,thatisfortheoverallsafetyofthecountryandforthefreedomofthemajorityofthepeople.IcanalsotellyouontheInternetinChina,youcanhaveaccesstoalotofpostingsthatarequitecriticalaboutthegovernment.ItisexactlythroughreadingthesecriticalopinionsontheInternetthatwetrytolocateproblemsandfurtherimproveourwork.Idontthinkasystemoragovernmentshouldfearcriticalopinionsorviews.Onlybyheedingthosecriticalviewswoulditbepossibleforustofurtherimproveourworkandmakefurtherprogress.IfrequentlybrowsetheInternettolearnaboutasituation.Zakaria:Whatareyourfavoritesites?WenJiabao:IvebrowsedalotofInternetWebsites.Zakaria:Iwilltakeadvantageofyourkindnessandaskyouaquestionthatmanypeoplearoundtheworldwonderabout.ThereisaveryfamousphotographofyouatTiananmensquarein1989.Whatlessondidyoutakefromyourexperiencesindealingwiththatproblemin1989?WenJiabao:Ibelievethatwhilemovingaheadwitheconomicreforms,wealsoneedtoadvancepoliticalreforms,asourdevelopmentiscomprehensiveinnature,ourreformshouldalsobecomprehensive.IthinkthecoreofyourquestionisaboutthedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina.IbelievewhenitcomestothedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina,wetalkaboutprogresstobemadeinthreeareas:No.1:WeneedtograduallyimprovethedemocraticelectionsystemsothatstatepowerwilltrulybelongtothepeopleandstatepowerwillbeusedtoservethepeopleNo.2:Weneedtoimprovethelegalsystem,runthecountryaccordingtolaw,andestablishthecountryundertheruleoflawandweneedtoviewanindependentandjustjudicialsystem.No.3:Governmentshouldbesubjecttooversightbythepeopleandthatwillaskus,callonustoincreasetransparencyingovernmentaffairsandparticularlyitisalsonecessaryforgovernmenttoacceptoversightbythenewsmediaandotherparties.ThereisalsoanotherimportantaspectthatwhenitcomestoWenJiabao:Ithinktherearemultipleformsofdemocracyintheworld.Whatisimportantisthesubstanceofdemocracy.Whichmeansthatattheendoftheday,whatisimportantaboutdemocracyisthatwhethersuchformofdemocracycanreallyrepresentthecallingandinterestofthepeople.SocialismasIunderstanditisasystemofdemocracy.Withoutdemocracy,thereisnosocialism.Inthefirsthalfofthisyear,orgiventhestatisticsforthefirsteightmonthsofthisyear,wecanseethatwehavemanagedtodothat.ApossibleU.S.economicrecessionwillcertainlyhaveanimpactontheChinaeconomy.Asweknowthat10yearsago,theChina-U.S.tradevolumestoodatonly$102.6billionU.S.,whiletodaythefiguressoarto$302billionU.S.,actuallyrepresentinganincreaseof1.5-fold.AshrinkingofU.S.demandwillcertainlyhaveanimpactonChinasexport.AndtheU.S.financeiscloselyconnectedwiththeChinesefinance.IfanythinggoeswrongintheU.S.financialsector,weareanxiousaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesecapital.ThatswhyintheverybeginningIhavemadeitclearthatthefinancialproblemsinthiscountrynotonlyconcernstheinterestsoftheUnitedStatesbutalsothatofChinaandtheworldatlarge.Zakaria:Thereisanothersenseinwhichweareinterdependent.ChinaisthelargestholderofU.S.Treasurybills.Bysomeaccounts,theyreworthalmost$1trillion.ItmakessomeAmericansuneasy.CanyoureassurethemthatChinawouldneverusethisstatusasaweaponinsomeway?WenJiabao:AsIsaid,webelievethattheU.S.realeconomyisstillsolidlybased.Particularlythehigh-techindustriesandthebasicindustries.Now,somethinghasgonewronginthevirtualeconomy,butifthisproblemisproperlyaddressed,thenitisstillpossibletostabilizetheeconomyinthiscountry.TheChinesegovernmenthopesverymuchthattheU.S.sidewillbeabletostabilizeitseconomyandfinanceasquicklyaspossible,andwealsohopetoseesustaineddevelopmentintheUnitedStatesasthatwillbenefitChina.Ofcourse,weareconcernedaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesemoneyhere.ButwebelievethattheUnitedStatesisacrediblecountryandparticularlyatsuchdifficulttimes,ChinahasreachedouttotheUnitedStates.Andactuallywebelievesuchahelpinghandwillhelpstabilizetheentireglobaleconomyandfinanceandtopreventamajorchaosfromoccurringintheglobaleconomicandfinancialsystem.Ibelievenowcooperationiseverything.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutChinasroleinabroadersense?ManypeopleseeChinaasasuperpoweralready,andtheywonder:whyisitnotbeingmoreactiveinpoliticalresolutionofissuessuchastheissueofDarfurortheissueofIrananditsnuclearambitions?ThereisahopethatChinawillplayaroleasaresponsiblestakeholder,touseRobertZoellicksphrasewhenhewasdeputysecretaryofstate,andthatChinawillbemoreactiveinmanagingthepoliticalproblemsintheworld,andthatsofarithasnotbeenactive.Howwouldyoureacttothat?WenJiabao:Toanswerthisquestion,Ineedtocorrectsomeoftheelementsinyourquestionfirst.ChinaisNOTasuperpower.AlthoughChinahasapopulationof1.3billionandalthoughinrecentyearsChinahasregisteredfairlyfasteconomicandsocialdevelopmentsincereformandopeningup,ChinastillhasthisproblemofunbalanceddevelopmentbetweendifferentregionsandbetweenChinasurbanandruralareas.Chinaremainsadevelopingcountry.Westillhave800millionfarmersinruralareas,andwestillhavedozensofmillionpeoplelivinginpoverty.Asamatteroffact,over60millionpeopleinruralandurbanareasinChinastillliveonallowancesforbasiclivingcostsinmycountry.Andeachyear,weneedtotakecareofabout23millionunemployedinurbanareasandabout200millionfarmerscomeandgotocitiestofindjobsinChina.Weneedtomakecommittedandveryearnesteffortstoaddressalltheseproblems.Toaddressourownproblems,weneedtodoagreatdeal.Chinaisnotasuperpower.Thatswhyweneedtofocusonourowndevelopmentandonoureffortstoimprovepeopleslives.Zakaria:ButsurelytheChinesegovernmentcouldpressuretheSudanesegovernmentortheIraniangovernmentorthegovernmentinBurmatobelessrepressive.Youhaverelationswithallthreeofthem.WenJiabao:Thatbringsmetoyoursecondquestion.Actuallyintheinternationalcommunity,Chinaisajustice-upholdingcountry.Wenevertradeourprinciples.TaketheDarfurissuethatyouraisedjustnowforexample.Chinahasalwaysadvocatedthatweneedtoadoptadual-trackapproachtoseekasolutiontotheDarfurissue.Chinawasamongthefirstcountriessendingpeace-keeperstoDarfur.ChinawasalsothefirstcountrythatgaveassistancetoSudanandwealsokeepoureffortstoengagetheleadersinSudantotrytoseekapeacefulsolutiontotheissueasquicklyaspossible.Zakaria:DoyouthinkitwouldbedangerousfortheworldifIrangotnuclearweapons?Andwhatdoyouthinktheworldshoulddototrytostopthatpossibility?WenJiabao:WearenotsupportiveofanuclearrisetoIran.WebelievethatIranhastherighttodevelopautilizationofnuclearenergyinapeacefulway.Butsucheffortsshouldbesubjecttothesafeguardsofthe[InternationalAtomicEnergyAgency],andIranshouldnotdevelopnuclearweapons.AsfarastheIraniannuclearissueisconcerned,Chinasstanceisclear-cut.Wehopethatthroughpromotingthetalksconcerningthisissue,thatwewillbeabletoencouragetheIranianauthoritiestogiveupanyideatodevelopnuclearweaponsandacceptIAEAsafeguards.Nonetheless,wehopethatwecanusepeacefultalkstoachievethepurpose,ratherthanresorttothewillfuluseofforceortheintimAndsuchademocracyfirstandforemostshouldservetoensurepeople'srighttodemocraticelections,oversightanddecisionmaking.Suchademocracyshouldalsohelppeopletofullydevelopthemselvesinanall-aroundwayinanenvironmentfeaturingfreedomandequality.Andsuchademocracyshouldbebasedonafull-fledgedlegalsystem.Otherwise,therewouldbechaos.That'swhyweneedtorunthecountryaccordingtolawandensurethateveryoneisequalunderthelaw.idationofforce.Itsliketreatingtherelationshipbetweentwoindividuals.Ifoneindividualtriestocornertheother,thentheeffectwillbecounterproductive.Thatwilldonothinginhelpingresolvetheproblem.Ourpurposeistoresolvetheproblem,nottoescalatetensions.AndIalsohaveaquestionforyou:DontyouthinkthattheeffortsmadebyChinainresolvingtheKoreannuclearissueandpositionwehaveadoptedinthisregardhaveactuallyhelpedthesituationontheKoreanpeninsulamoveforthebetterdaybyday?And,ofcourse,IknowthatitstilltakestimetoseekathoroughandcompletesolutiontotheKoreannuclearissue,andonthatbasistohelpputinplacethesecurityandstabilityinNortheastAsia.But,whatIdliketostressisthatthemodelthatwehaveadopted,andtheeffortswehavemade,provetoberightinthis,inthisdirection.Zakaria:Sinceyouhonoredmebyaskingthequestion,Iwillsaytoyou,premier,thatChinaseffortsinNorthKoreahavebeenappreciatedintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworld.AndofcourseitmakespeoplewishthatChinawouldbeactiveinotherareasinjustthesameproductivewaythatitwasinNorthKoreabecauseweseethatitproducesresults.WenJiabao:Wehavegainedalotofexperienceandlearnedlessonsfromyearsofnegotiationsconcerningthesix-partytalks,andtheprogressmadeinthesix-partytalksalsohasalottodowiththeclosecooperationamongthesixparties.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutanothersetofpossibletalks?TheDalaiLamahassaidnowitappearsthathewouldacceptChinasruleinTibet,heacceptsthesocialistsysteminTibet,andwhatheasksforisculturalautonomyandacertaindegreeofpoliticalautonomy.ThetalksapparentlyarestuckatalowerlevelbetweentheTibetansandtheChinesegovernment.Whydontyou,givenyourpowerandyournegotiatingskills,taketheissueyourself--andyouorPresidentHuJintaowouldnegotiatedirectlywiththeDalaiLamaandsolvethisissueonceandforallforthebenefitoftheChinesepeople,andofcoursetheTibetanpeoplewhoarealsoinChina?WenJiabao:OurissuewiththeDalaiLamaisnotaethnic,religiousorculturalissueintheordinarysense.Itsamajorprincipledissueconcerningsafeguardingthecountrysunityorallowingeffortstoseparateacountry.Andwemustadoptatwo-prongedapproachinviewingtheDalaiLama.Ononehand,itistruethattheDalaiisareligiousleader,andheenjoyscertaininfluenceintheTibetanregion,andparticularlyinregionsthattheinhabitantsbelieveinBuddhism.And,ontheotherhand,wemustalsobeawarethatheisnotanordinaryreligiousfigure.Theso-calledgovernmentinexilefoundedbytheDalaiLamapracticesatheocraticrule.Andthepurposeofthisso-calledgovernmentinexileistoseparateTibetfromChina.Inmanyplacesallovertheworld,theDalaiLamakeepspreachingabouttheideaofaso-calledautonomyinthegreaterTibetanregion.Andactually,theso-calledautonomythathepursuesisactuallytousereligiontointerveneinpolitics.Theywanttoseparatetheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionfromthemotherland.AndmanypeopleintheUnitedStateshavenoideahowbigistheso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,theso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,preachedbytheDalaiLama,actuallycoversTibet,Sichuan,Yunnan,QinghaiandGansu--altogetherfiveprovinces.Andtheareacoveredbytheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionaccountsforaquarterofChinasterritory.Fordecades,ourpolicytowardstheDalaiLamaremainsunchanged:thatis,aslongastheDalaiLamaiswillingtorecognizethatTibetisaninalienablepartofChinasterritory,andaslongastheDalaiLamagivesuphisseparatistactivities,werewillingtohavecontactandtalkswithhimorhisrepresentatives.Now,sincerityholdsthekeytoproducingresultoutofthetalks.AftertheTibetincidentbackinthe1950s,thehighestleaderofthecentralgovernment,Mr.DengXiaoping,alsomettherepresentativesoftheDalaiLama.So,Idontthinkthereisthisproblem,aswhetherIcanhavecontactwiththeDalaiLama.Therealkeyliesintheeffectivenessofsuchcontactandtalks.Wehopethathecanuserealactionstoshowsincerityandbreakthedeadlock.Zakaria:WhatactionwouldyouliketoseefromtheDalaiLamathatwouldshowsincerity?WenJiabao:Actually,Ialreadymadeitclearthatwhenweobserveanyindividual,theDalaiLamaincluded,weshouldnotonlywatchwhat,weshouldnotonlyobservewhathesays,butalsowatchwhathedoes.Hissinceritycanbedemonstratedingivingupseparatistactivities.Zakaria:Andthenyoumightmeetwithhim?WenJiabao:Bythen,everythingdependsonthedevelopmentofthesituation.Ofcourse,talksmaycontinue,andinlightoftheprogressinthetalks,wemayalsoconsiderraisingthelevelofthetalks.Zakaria:PremierWen,yourcountryhasgrown,asyoupointedout,9?percentfor30years--fastestgrowthrateofanycountryinhistory.Ifpeoplecometoyouandsaytoyou,WhatistheChinesemodelofsucceedingasadevelopingcountry?Whatwouldyousay?Whatisthekeytoyoursuccess?Whatisthemodel?WenJiabao:Itseasytoanswerthisquestion,thatyoumaythinkaboutthisthing--thatabout30yearsago,whyChinawasnotabletogrowasfastasithasinthefollowingyears.IthinkthisisattributabletothereformsandopeningZakaria:We'vetalkedaboutelectionsmanytimes.Doyouthinkin25yearstherewillbenationalelectionsinwhichtherewillbeacompetition,therewillbeperhapstwoparties,thatwillberunningforapositionsuchasyourown?Inthefirsthalfofthisyear,orgiventhestatisticsforthefirsteightmonthsofthisyear,wecanseethatwehavemanagedtodothat.ApossibleU.S.economicrecessionwillcertainlyhaveanimpactontheChinaeconomy.Asweknowthat10yearsago,theChina-U.S.tradevolumestoodatonly$102.6billionU.S.,whiletodaythefiguressoarto$302billionU.S.,actuallyrepresentinganincreaseof1.5-fold.AshrinkingofU.S.demandwillcertainlyhaveanimpactonChinasexport.AndtheU.S.financeiscloselyconnectedwiththeChinesefinance.IfanythinggoeswrongintheU.S.financialsector,weareanxiousaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesecapital.ThatswhyintheverybeginningIhavemadeitclearthatthefinancialproblemsinthiscountrynotonlyconcernstheinterestsoftheUnitedStatesbutalsothatofChinaandtheworldatlarge.Zakaria:Thereisanothersenseinwhichweareinterdependent.ChinaisthelargestholderofU.S.Treasurybills.Bysomeaccounts,theyreworthalmost$1trillion.ItmakessomeAmericansuneasy.CanyoureassurethemthatChinawouldneverusethisstatusasaweaponinsomeway?WenJiabao:AsIsaid,webelievethattheU.S.realeconomyisstillsolidlybased.Particularlythehigh-techindustriesandthebasicindustries.Now,somethinghasgonewronginthevirtualeconomy,butifthisproblemisproperlyaddressed,thenitisstillpossibletostabilizetheeconomyinthiscountry.TheChinesegovernmenthopesverymuchthattheU.S.sidewillbeabletostabilizeitseconomyandfinanceasquicklyaspossible,andwealsohopetoseesustaineddevelopmentintheUnitedStatesasthatwillbenefitChina.Ofcourse,weareconcernedaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesemoneyhere.ButwebelievethattheUnitedStatesisacrediblecountryandparticularlyatsuchdifficulttimes,ChinahasreachedouttotheUnitedStates.Andactuallywebelievesuchahelpinghandwillhelpstabilizetheentireglobaleconomyandfinanceandtopreventamajorchaosfromoccurringintheglobaleconomicandfinancialsystem.Ibelievenowcooperationiseverything.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutChinasroleinabroadersense?ManypeopleseeChinaasasuperpoweralready,andtheywonder:whyisitnotbeingmoreactiveinpoliticalresolutionofissuessuchastheissueofDarfurortheissueofIrananditsnuclearambitions?ThereisahopethatChinawillplayaroleasaresponsiblestakeholder,touseRobertZoellicksphrasewhenhewasdeputysecretaryofstate,andthatChinawillbemoreactiveinmanagingthepoliticalproblemsintheworld,andthatsofarithasnotbeenactive.Howwouldyoureacttothat?WenJiabao:Toanswerthisquestion,Ineedtocorrectsomeoftheelementsinyourquestionfirst.ChinaisNOTasuperpower.AlthoughChinahasapopulationof1.3billionandalthoughinrecentyearsChinahasregisteredfairlyfasteconomicandsocialdevelopmentsincereformandopeningup,ChinastillhasthisproblemofunbalanceddevelopmentbetweendifferentregionsandbetweenChinasurbanandruralareas.Chinaremainsadevelopingcountry.Westillhave800millionfarmersinruralareas,andwestillhavedozensofmillionpeoplelivinginpoverty.Asamatteroffact,over60millionpeopleinruralandurbanareasinChinastillliveonallowancesforbasiclivingcostsinmycountry.Andeachyear,weneedtotakecareofabout23millionunemployedinurbanareasandabout200millionfarmerscomeandgotocitiestofindjobsinChina.Weneedtomakecommittedandveryearnesteffortstoaddressalltheseproblems.Toaddressourownproblems,weneedtodoagreatdeal.Chinaisnotasuperpower.Thatswhyweneedtofocusonourowndevelopmentandonoureffortstoimprovepeopleslives.Zakaria:ButsurelytheChinesegovernmentcouldpressuretheSudanesegovernmentortheIraniangovernmentorthegovernmentinBurmatobelessrepressive.Youhaverelationswithallthreeofthem.WenJiabao:Thatbringsmetoyoursecondquestion.Actuallyintheinternationalcommunity,Chinaisajustice-upholdingcountry.Wenevertradeourprinciples.TaketheDarfurissuethatyouraisedjustnowforexample.Chinahasalwaysadvocatedthatweneedtoadoptadual-trackapproachtoseekasolutiontotheDarfurissue.Chinawasamongthefirstcountriessendingpeace-keeperstoDarfur.ChinawasalsothefirstcountrythatgaveassistancetoSudanandwealsokeepoureffortstoengagetheleadersinSudantotrytoseekapeacefulsolutiontotheissueasquicklyaspossible.Zakaria:DoyouthinkitwouldbedangerousfortheworldifIrangotnuclearweapons?Andwhatdoyouthinktheworldshoulddototrytostopthatpossibility?WenJiabao:WearenotsupportiveofanuclearrisetoIran.WebelievethatIranhastherighttodevelopautilizationofnuclearenergyinapeacefulway.Butsucheffortsshouldbesubjecttothesafeguardsofthe[InternationalAtomicEnergyAgency],andIranshouldnotdevelopnuclearweapons.AsfarastheIraniannuclearissueisconcerned,Chinasstanceisclear-cut.Wehopethatthroughpromotingthetalksconcerningthisissue,thatwewillbeabletoencouragetheIranianauthoritiestogiveupanyideatodevelopnuclearweaponsandacceptIAEAsafeguards.Nonetheless,wehopethatwecanusepeacefultalkstoachievethepurpose,ratherthanresorttothewillfuluseofforceortheintimWenJiabao:It'shardformetopredictwhatwillhappenin25yearstime.Thisbeingsaid,Ihavethisconviction--thatChina'sdemocracywillcontinuetogrow.In20to30yearstime,thewholeChinesesocietywillbemoredemocraticandfairer,andthelegalsysteminChinawillfurtherbeimproved.Thesocialismasweseeitwillfurthermatureandimprove.Zakaria:Letmeaskyou,premier,finallyacoupleofquestionsthatarepersonal.You'vesaidthatyou'vereadtheworksofMarcusAureliusahundredtimes.MarcusAureliusisafamousstoicphilosopher.Myreadingofhimsaysthatoneshouldnotbeinvolvedintheself,andinanykindofpursuitsthatareself-interestedbutshouldbemoreforthecommunityasawhole.WhenIgotoChinathesedays,Iamstruckbyhowmuchindividualismthereis,howmuchconsumerismthereis.AreyoutryingtosendasignaltotheChinesepeopletothinklessaboutthemselvesandmoreaboutthecommunity?Inthefirsthalfofthisyear,orgiventhestatisticsforthefirsteightmonthsofthisyear,wecanseethatwehavemanagedtodothat.ApossibleU.S.economicrecessionwillcertainlyhaveanimpactontheChinaeconomy.Asweknowthat10yearsago,theChina-U.S.tradevolumestoodatonly$102.6billionU.S.,whiletodaythefiguressoarto$302billionU.S.,actuallyrepresentinganincreaseof1.5-fold.AshrinkingofU.S.demandwillcertainlyhaveanimpactonChinasexport.AndtheU.S.financeiscloselyconnectedwiththeChinesefinance.IfanythinggoeswrongintheU.S.financialsector,weareanxiousaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesecapital.ThatswhyintheverybeginningIhavemadeitclearthatthefinancialproblemsinthiscountrynotonlyconcernstheinterestsoftheUnitedStatesbutalsothatofChinaandtheworldatlarge.Zakaria:Thereisanothersenseinwhichweareinterdependent.ChinaisthelargestholderofU.S.Treasurybills.Bysomeaccounts,theyreworthalmost$1trillion.ItmakessomeAmericansuneasy.CanyoureassurethemthatChinawouldneverusethisstatusasaweaponinsomeway?WenJiabao:AsIsaid,webelievethattheU.S.realeconomyisstillsolidlybased.Particularlythehigh-techindustriesandthebasicindustries.Now,somethinghasgonewronginthevirtualeconomy,butifthisproblemisproperlyaddressed,thenitisstillpossibletostabilizetheeconomyinthiscountry.TheChinesegovernmenthopesverymuchthattheU.S.sidewillbeabletostabilizeitseconomyandfinanceasquicklyaspossible,andwealsohopetoseesustaineddevelopmentintheUnitedStatesasthatwillbenefitChina.Ofcourse,weareconcernedaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesemoneyhere.ButwebelievethattheUnitedStatesisacrediblecountryandparticularlyatsuchdifficulttimes,ChinahasreachedouttotheUnitedStates.Andactuallywebelievesuchahelpinghandwillhelpstabilizetheentireglobaleconomyandfinanceandtopreventamajorchaosfromoccurringintheglobaleconomicandfinancialsystem.Ibelievenowcooperationiseverything.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutChinasroleinabroadersense?ManypeopleseeChinaasasuperpoweralready,andtheywonder:whyisitnotbeingmoreactiveinpoliticalresolutionofissuessuchastheissueofDarfurortheissueofIrananditsnuclearambitions?ThereisahopethatChinawillplayaroleasaresponsiblestakeholder,touseRobertZoellicksphrasewhenhewasdeputysecretaryofstate,andthatChinawillbemoreactiveinmanagingthepoliticalproblemsintheworld,andthatsofarithasnotbeenactive.Howwouldyoureacttothat?WenJiabao:Toanswerthisquestion,Ineedtocorrectsomeoftheelementsinyourquestionfirst.ChinaisNOTasuperpower.AlthoughChinahasapopulationof1.3billionandalthoughinrecentyearsChinahasregisteredfairlyfasteconomicandsocialdevelopmentsincereformandopeningup,ChinastillhasthisproblemofunbalanceddevelopmentbetweendifferentregionsandbetweenChinasurbanandruralareas.Chinaremainsadevelopingcountry.Westillhave800millionfarmersinruralareas,andwestillhavedozensofmillionpeoplelivinginpoverty.Asamatteroffact,over60millionpeopleinruralandurbanareasinChinastillliveonallowancesforbasiclivingcostsinmycountry.Andeachyear,weneedtotakecareofabout23millionunemployedinurbanareasandabout200millionfarmerscomeandgotocitiestofindjobsinChina.Weneedtomakecommittedandveryearnesteffortstoaddressalltheseproblems.Toaddressourownproblems,weneedtodoagreatdeal.Chinaisnotasuperpower.Thatswhyweneedtofocusonourowndevelopmentandonoureffortstoimprovepeopleslives.Zakaria:ButsurelytheChinesegovernmentcouldpressuretheSudanesegovernmentortheIraniangovernmentorthegovernmentinBurmatobelessrepressive.Youhaverelationswithallthreeofthem.WenJiabao:Thatbringsmetoyoursecondquestion.Actuallyintheinternationalcommunity,Chinaisajustice-upholdingcountry.Wenevertradeourprinciples.TaketheDarfurissuethatyouraisedjustnowforexample.Chinahasalwaysadvocatedthatweneedtoadoptadual-trackapproachtoseekasolutiontotheDarfurissue.Chinawasamongthefirstcountriessendingpeace-keeperstoDarfur.ChinawasalsothefirstcountrythatgaveassistancetoSudanandwealsokeepoureffortstoengagetheleadersinSudantotrytoseekapeacefulsolutiontotheissueasquicklyaspossible.Zakaria:DoyouthinkitwouldbedangerousfortheworldifIrangotnuclearweapons?Andwhatdoyouthinktheworldshoulddototrytostopthatpossibility?WenJiabao:WearenotsupportiveofanuclearrisetoIran.WebelievethatIranhastherighttodevelopautilizationofnuclearenergyinapeacefulway.Butsucheffortsshouldbesubjecttothesafeguardsofthe[InternationalAtomicEnergyAgency],andIranshouldnotdevelopnuclearweapons.AsfarastheIraniannuclearissueisconcerned,Chinasstanceisclear-cut.Wehopethatthroughpromotingthetalksconcerningthisissue,thatwewillbeabletoencouragetheIranianauthoritiestogiveupanyideatodevelopnuclearweaponsandacceptIAEAsafeguards.Nonetheless,wehopethatwecanusepeacefultalkstoachievethepurpose,ratherthanresorttothewillfuluseofforceortheintimWenJiabao:ItistrueIdidreadthemeditationswrittenbyMarcusAureliusAntonioonmanyoccasions,andIwasverydeeplyimpressedbythewordsthathewroteinthebook--tobefact-wherearethosepeoplethatweregreatforatime?Theyareallgone,leavingonlyastory,orsomeevenjusthalfastory.SoIdrawtheconclusionthatonlypeopleareinthepositiontocreatehistoryandwritehistory.Iverymuchvaluemorality,andIdobelievethatentrepreneurs,economistsandstatesmenalikeshouldpaymuchmoreattentiontomoralityandethics.Inmymind,thehigheststandardtomeasuretheethicsandmoralityisjustice.idationofforce.Itsliketreatingtherelationshipbetweentwoindividuals.Ifoneindividualtriestocornertheother,thentheeffectwillbecounterproductive.Thatwilldonothinginhelpingresolvetheproblem.Ourpurposeistoresolvetheproblem,nottoescalatetensions.AndIalsohaveaquestionforyou:DontyouthinkthattheeffortsmadebyChinainresolvingtheKoreannuclearissueandpositionwehaveadoptedinthisregardhaveactuallyhelpedthesituationontheKoreanpeninsulamoveforthebetterdaybyday?And,ofcourse,IknowthatitstilltakestimetoseekathoroughandcompletesolutiontotheKoreannuclearissue,andonthatbasistohelpputinplacethesecurityandstabilityinNortheastAsia.But,whatIdliketostressisthatthemodelthatwehaveadopted,andtheeffortswehavemade,provetoberightinthis,inthisdirection.Zakaria:Sinceyouhonoredmebyaskingthequestion,Iwillsaytoyou,premier,thatChinaseffortsinNorthKoreahavebeenappreciatedintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworld.AndofcourseitmakespeoplewishthatChinawouldbeactiveinotherareasinjustthesameproductivewaythatitwasinNorthKoreabecauseweseethatitproducesresults.WenJiabao:Wehavegainedalotofexperienceandlearnedlessonsfromyearsofnegotiationsconcerningthesix-partytalks,andtheprogressmadeinthesix-partytalksalsohasalottodowiththeclosecooperationamongthesixparties.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutanothersetofpossibletalks?TheDalaiLamahassaidnowitappearsthathewouldacceptChinasruleinTibet,heacceptsthesocialistsysteminTibet,andwhatheasksforisculturalautonomyandacertaindegreeofpoliticalautonomy.ThetalksapparentlyarestuckatalowerlevelbetweentheTibetansandtheChinesegovernment.Whydontyou,givenyourpowerandyournegotiatingskills,taketheissueyourself--andyouorPresidentHuJintaowouldnegotiatedirectlywiththeDalaiLamaandsolvethisissueonceandforallforthebenefitoftheChinesepeople,andofcoursetheTibetanpeoplewhoarealsoinChina?WenJiabao:OurissuewiththeDalaiLamaisnotaethnic,religiousorculturalissueintheordinarysense.Itsamajorprincipledissueconcerningsafeguardingthecountrysunityorallowingeffortstoseparateacountry.Andwemustadoptatwo-prongedapproachinviewingtheDalaiLama.Ononehand,itistruethattheDalaiisareligiousleader,andheenjoyscertaininfluenceintheTibetanregion,andparticularlyinregionsthattheinhabitantsbelieveinBuddhism.And,ontheotherhand,wemustalsobeawarethatheisnotanordinaryreligiousfigure.Theso-calledgovernmentinexilefoundedbytheDalaiLamapracticesatheocraticrule.Andthepurposeofthisso-calledgovernmentinexileistoseparateTibetfromChina.Inmanyplacesallovertheworld,theDalaiLamakeepspreachingabouttheideaofaso-calledautonomyinthegreaterTibetanregion.Andactually,theso-calledautonomythathepursuesisactuallytousereligiontointerveneinpolitics.Theywanttoseparatetheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionfromthemotherland.AndmanypeopleintheUnitedStateshavenoideahowbigistheso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,theso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,preachedbytheDalaiLama,actuallycoversTibet,Sichuan,Yunnan,QinghaiandGansu--altogetherfiveprovinces.Andtheareacoveredbytheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionaccountsforaquarterofChinasterritory.Fordecades,ourpolicytowardstheDalaiLamaremainsunchanged:thatis,aslongastheDalaiLamaiswillingtorecognizethatTibetisaninalienablepartofChinasterritory,andaslongastheDalaiLamagivesuphisseparatistactivities,werewillingtohavecontactandtalkswithhimorhisrepresentatives.Now,sincerityholdsthekeytoproducingresultoutofthetalks.AftertheTibetincidentbackinthe1950s,thehighestleaderofthecentralgovernment,Mr.DengXiaoping,alsomettherepresentativesoftheDalaiLama.So,Idontthinkthereisthisproblem,aswhetherIcanhavecontactwiththeDalaiLama.Therealkeyliesintheeffectivenessofsuchcontactandtalks.Wehopethathecanuserealactionstoshowsincerityandbreakthedeadlock.Zakaria:WhatactionwouldyouliketoseefromtheDalaiLamathatwouldshowsincerity?WenJiabao:Actually,Ialreadymadeitclearthatwhenweobserveanyindividual,theDalaiLamaincluded,weshouldnotonlywatchwhat,weshouldnotonlyobservewhathesays,butalsowatchwhathedoes.Hissinceritycanbedemonstratedingivingupseparatistactivities.Zakaria:Andthenyoumightmeetwithhim?WenJiabao:Bythen,everythingdependsonthedevelopmentofthesituation.Ofcourse,talksmaycontinue,andinlightoftheprogressinthetalks,wemayalsoconsiderraisingthelevelofthetalks.Zakaria:PremierWen,yourcountryhasgrown,asyoupointedout,9?percentfor30years--fastestgrowthrateofanycountryinhistory.Ifpeoplecometoyouandsaytoyou,WhatistheChinesemodelofsucceedingasadevelopingcountry?Whatwouldyousay?Whatisthekeytoyoursuccess?Whatisthemodel?WenJiabao:Itseasytoanswerthisquestion,thatyoumaythinkaboutthisthing--thatabout30yearsago,whyChinawasnotabletogrowasfastasithasinthefollowingyears.IthinkthisisattributabletothereformsandopeningThat'swhyinthemorningwhenIansweredthequestion,IsaidthatIbelieveintheveinsoftheeconomist,weshouldseethebloodofmorality.Whenwethinkabouteconomy,wethinkmoreabouttherealelementsconcerningthecompany,thecapital,themarket,thetechnology,soonandsoforth.Andwemightforgetabouttheothersortofelementsthatworkbehindthescene,andthesefactorsarealsoaffectedbythevisiblefactorslikeconvictionandmorality.Onlywhenwecombinethesetwokindsoffactors,canweputinplaceafullpictureoftheDNAoftheeconomy.ItistrueinthecourseofChina'seconomicdevelopment,somecompanieshaveactuallypursuedtheirprofitsattheexpenseofmoralityandwewillneverallowsuchthingstohappen.upapolicyweintroducedin1978.ThisholdsthekeytoChinassuccess.Byintroducingreformandopeningup,wehavegreatlyemancipatedproductivityinChina.Wehaveoneimportantthought:thatsocialismcanalsopracticemarketeconomy.Zakaria:Peoplethinkthatsacontradiction.Youhavethemarketeconomy,wherethemarketallocatesresources,andinsocialism,itsallcentralplanning.Howdoyoumakebothwork?WenJiabao:Thecompleteformulationofoureconomicpolicyistogivefullplaytothebasicroleofmarketforcesinallocatingresourcesunderthemacroeconomicguidanceandregulationofthegovernment.Wehaveoneimportantpieceofexperienceofthepast30years:thatistoensurethatboththevisiblehandandtheinvisiblehandaregivenfullplayinregulatingthemarketforces.IfyouarefamiliarwiththeclassicalworksofAdamSmith,youwillknowthattherearetwofamousworksofhis.OneisTheWealthofNations;theotheristhebookonthemoralityandethics.And,TheWealthofNationsdealsmorewiththeinvisiblehandthatarethemarketforces.Andtheotherbookdealswithsocialequityandjustice.Andintheotherbookhewrote,hestressedtheimportanceofplayingtheregulatoryroleofthegovernmenttofurtherdistributethewealthamongthepeople.Ifinacountry,mostofthewealthisconcentratedinthehandsofthefew,thenthiscountrycanhardlywitnessharmonyandstability.ThesameapproachalsoappliestothecurrentU.S.economy.Toaddressthecurrenteconomicandfinancialproblemsinthiscountry,weneedtoapplynotonlythevisiblehandbutalsotheinvisiblehand.Zakaria:MayIaskyou--someAmericansandEuropeans,particularlyhumanrightsobservers,saythatChinahascrackeddownonhumanrightsoverthelastfewyears,thattheyhadbeenhopingthattheOlympicswouldleadtoanopeningofChina,butthatithas,therehasbeenmorerepression.Howwouldyourespondtothat?WenJiabao:ByhostingtheOlympicGames,Chinahasactuallybecomemoreopen.Anyonewithoutbiaseswillsee--haveseenthat.InthefreedomofspeechandthefreedominnewsmediacoverageareguaranteedinChina.TheChinesegovernmentattachesimportanceto,andprotects,humanrights.WehaveincorporatedtheselinesintotheChineseconstitution,andwealsoimplementthestipulationinrealearnest.Ithinkforanygovernment,whatismostimportant,istoensurethatitspeopleenjoyeachandeveryrightgiventothembytheconstitution.Includingtheirrighttosurvival,freedomandtopursuetheirhappiness.Wedontthinkthatweareimpeccableintermsofhumanrights.Itistruethatinsomeplacesandinsomeareas,wedohaveproblemsofthiskindorthatkind.Nonetheless,wearecontinuingtomakeeffortstomakeimprovements,andwewanttofurtherimprovehumanrightsinourcountry.Zakaria:WhenIgotoChinaandIminahotelandItypeinthewordsTiananmenSquareinmycomputer,Igetafirewall,whatsomepeoplecalltheGreatFirewallofChina.CanyoubeanadvancedsocietyifyoudonthavefreedomofinformationtofindoutinformationontheInternet?WenJiabao:Chinanowhasover200millionInternetusers,andthefreedomofInternetinChinaisrecognizedbymany,evenfromthewest.Nonetheless,toupholdstatesecurity,China,likemanycountriesintheworld,hasalsoimposedsomeproperrestrictions.Thatisforthesafety,thatisfortheoverallsafetyofthecountryandforthefreedomofthemajorityofthepeople.IcanalsotellyouontheInternetinChina,youcanhaveaccesstoalotofpostingsthatarequitecriticalaboutthegovernment.ItisexactlythroughreadingthesecriticalopinionsontheInternetthatwetrytolocateproblemsandfurtherimproveourwork.Idontthinkasystemoragovernmentshouldfearcriticalopinionsorviews.Onlybyheedingthosecriticalviewswoulditbepossibleforustofurtherimproveourworkandmakefurtherprogress.IfrequentlybrowsetheInternettolearnaboutasituation.Zakaria:Whatareyourfavoritesites?WenJiabao:IvebrowsedalotofInternetWebsites.Zakaria:Iwilltakeadvantageofyourkindnessandaskyouaquestionthatmanypeoplearoundtheworldwonderabout.ThereisaveryfamousphotographofyouatTiananmensquarein1989.Whatlessondidyoutakefromyourexperiencesindealingwiththatproblemin1989?WenJiabao:Ibelievethatwhilemovingaheadwitheconomicreforms,wealsoneedtoadvancepoliticalreforms,asourdevelopmentiscomprehensiveinnature,ourreformshouldalsobecomprehensive.IthinkthecoreofyourquestionisaboutthedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina.IbelievewhenitcomestothedevelopmentofdemocracyinChina,wetalkaboutprogresstobemadeinthreeareas:No.1:WeneedtograduallyimprovethedemocraticelectionsystemsothatstatepowerwilltrulybelongtothepeopleandstatepowerwillbeusedtoservethepeopleNo.2:Weneedtoimprovethelegalsystem,runthecountryaccordingtolaw,andestablishthecountryundertheruleoflawandweneedtoviewanindependentandjustjudicialsystem.No.3:Governmentshouldbesubjecttooversightbythepeopleandthatwillaskus,callonustoincreasetransparencyingovernmentaffairsandparticularlyitisalsonecessaryforgovernmenttoacceptoversightbythenewsmediaandotherparties.ThereisalsoanotherimportantaspectthatwhenitcomestoWewillnotalloweconomicgrowthattheexpenseofthelossofmoralitybecausesuchapproachsimplycannotsustain.That'swhyweadvocatethecorporate,occupationalandsocialethics.idationofforce.Itsliketreatingtherelationshipbetweentwoindividuals.Ifoneindividualtriestocornertheother,thentheeffectwillbecounterproductive.Thatwilldonothinginhelpingresolvetheproblem.Ourpurposeistoresolvetheproblem,nottoescalatetensions.AndIalsohaveaquestionforyou:DontyouthinkthattheeffortsmadebyChinainresolvingtheKoreannuclearissueandpositionwehaveadoptedinthisregardhaveactuallyhelpedthesituationontheKoreanpeninsulamoveforthebetterdaybyday?And,ofcourse,IknowthatitstilltakestimetoseekathoroughandcompletesolutiontotheKoreannuclearissue,andonthatbasistohelpputinplacethesecurityandstabilityinNortheastAsia.But,whatIdliketostressisthatthemodelthatwehaveadopted,andtheeffortswehavemade,provetoberightinthis,inthisdirection.Zakaria:Sinceyouhonoredmebyaskingthequestion,Iwillsaytoyou,premier,thatChinaseffortsinNorthKoreahavebeenappreciatedintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworld.AndofcourseitmakespeoplewishthatChinawouldbeactiveinotherareasinjustthesameproductivewaythatitwasinNorthKoreabecauseweseethatitproducesresults.WenJiabao:Wehavegainedalotofexperienceandlearnedlessonsfromyearsofnegotiationsconcerningthesix-partytalks,andtheprogressmadeinthesix-partytalksalsohasalottodowiththeclosecooperationamongthesixparties.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutanothersetofpossibletalks?TheDalaiLamahassaidnowitappearsthathewouldacceptChinasruleinTibet,heacceptsthesocialistsysteminTibet,andwhatheasksforisculturalautonomyandacertaindegreeofpoliticalautonomy.ThetalksapparentlyarestuckatalowerlevelbetweentheTibetansandtheChinesegovernment.Whydontyou,givenyourpowerandyournegotiatingskills,taketheissueyourself--andyouorPresidentHuJintaowouldnegotiatedirectlywiththeDalaiLamaandsolvethisissueonceandforallforthebenefitoftheChinesepeople,andofcoursetheTibetanpeoplewhoarealsoinChina?WenJiabao:OurissuewiththeDalaiLamaisnotaethnic,religiousorculturalissueintheordinarysense.Itsamajorprincipledissueconcerningsafeguardingthecountrysunityorallowingeffortstoseparateacountry.Andwemustadoptatwo-prongedapproachinviewingtheDalaiLama.Ononehand,itistruethattheDalaiisareligiousleader,andheenjoyscertaininfluenceintheTibetanregion,andparticularlyinregionsthattheinhabitantsbelieveinBuddhism.And,ontheotherhand,wemustalsobeawarethatheisnotanordinaryreligiousfigure.Theso-calledgovernmentinexilefoundedbytheDalaiLamapracticesatheocraticrule.Andthepurposeofthisso-calledgovernmentinexileistoseparateTibetfromChina.Inmanyplacesallovertheworld,theDalaiLamakeepspreachingabouttheideaofaso-calledautonomyinthegreaterTibetanregion.Andactually,theso-calledautonomythathepursuesisactuallytousereligiontointerveneinpolitics.Theywanttoseparatetheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionfromthemotherland.AndmanypeopleintheUnitedStateshavenoideahowbigistheso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,theso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,preachedbytheDalaiLama,actuallycoversTibet,Sichuan,Yunnan,QinghaiandGansu--altogetherfiveprovinces.Andtheareacoveredbytheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionaccountsforaquarterofChinasterritory.Fordecades,ourpolicytowardstheDalaiLamaremainsunchanged:thatis,aslongastheDalaiLamaiswillingtorecognizethatTibetisaninalienablepartofChinasterritory,andaslongastheDalaiLamagivesuphisseparatistactivities,werewillingtohavecontactandtalkswithhimorhisrepresentatives.Now,sincerityholdsthekeytoproducingresultoutofthetalks.AftertheTibetincidentbackinthe1950s,thehighestleaderofthecentralgovernment,Mr.DengXiaoping,alsomettherepresentativesoftheDalaiLama.So,Idontthinkthereisthisproblem,aswhetherIcanhavecontactwiththeDalaiLama.Therealkeyliesintheeffectivenessofsuchcontactandtalks.Wehopethathecanuserealactionstoshowsincerityandbreakthedeadlock.Zakaria:WhatactionwouldyouliketoseefromtheDalaiLamathatwouldshowsincerity?WenJiabao:Actually,Ialreadymadeitclearthatwhenweobserveanyindividual,theDalaiLamaincluded,weshouldnotonlywatchwhat,weshouldnotonlyobservewhathesays,butalsowatchwhathedoes.Hissinceritycanbedemonstratedingivingupseparatistactivities.Zakaria:Andthenyoumightmeetwithhim?WenJiabao:Bythen,everythingdependsonthedevelopmentofthesituation.Ofcourse,talksmaycontinue,andinlightoftheprogressinthetalks,wemayalsoconsiderraisingthelevelofthetalks.Zakaria:PremierWen,yourcountryhasgrown,asyoupointedout,9?percentfor30years--fastestgrowthrateofanycountryinhistory.Ifpeoplecometoyouandsaytoyou,WhatistheChinesemodelofsucceedingasadevelopingcountry?Whatwouldyousay?Whatisthekeytoyoursuccess?Whatisthemodel?WenJiabao:Itseasytoanswerthisquestion,thatyoumaythinkaboutthisthing--thatabout30yearsago,whyChinawasnotabletogrowasfastasithasinthefollowingyears.IthinkthisisattributabletothereformsandopeningZakaria:Letmeaskyouafinalquestion,yourexcellency.YoumusthavebeenwatchingtheAmericanelection.Whatisyourreactiontothestrangeraceandelectionthatwearehavinginthiscountry?WenJiabao:ThepresidentialelectionoftheUnitedStatesshouldbedecidedbytheAmericanpeople.ButwhatIfollowverycloselyistherelationshipbetweenChinaandtheUnitedStatesaftertheelection.idationofforce.Itsliketreatingtherelationshipbetweentwoindividuals.Ifoneindividualtriestocornertheother,thentheeffectwillbecounterproductive.Thatwilldonothinginhelpingresolvetheproblem.Ourpurposeistoresolvetheproblem,nottoescalatetensions.AndIalsohaveaquestionforyou:DontyouthinkthattheeffortsmadebyChinainresolvingtheKoreannuclearissueandpositionwehaveadoptedinthisregardhaveactuallyhelpedthesituationontheKoreanpeninsulamoveforthebetterdaybyday?And,ofcourse,IknowthatitstilltakestimetoseekathoroughandcompletesolutiontotheKoreannuclearissue,andonthatbasistohelpputinplacethesecurityandstabilityinNortheastAsia.But,whatIdliketostressisthatthemodelthatwehaveadopted,andtheeffortswehavemade,provetoberightinthis,inthisdirection.Zakaria:Sinceyouhonoredmebyaskingthequestion,Iwillsaytoyou,premier,thatChinaseffortsinNorthKoreahavebeenappreciatedintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworld.AndofcourseitmakespeoplewishthatChinawouldbeactiveinotherareasinjustthesameproductivewaythatitwasinNorthKoreabecauseweseethatitproducesresults.WenJiabao:Wehavegainedalotofexperienceandlearnedlessonsfromyearsofnegotiationsconcerningthesix-partytalks,andtheprogressmadeinthesix-partytalksalsohasalottodowiththeclosecooperationamongthesixparties.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutanothersetofpossibletalks?TheDalaiLamahassaidnowitappearsthathewouldacceptChinasruleinTibet,heacceptsthesocialistsysteminTibet,andwhatheasksforisculturalautonomyandacertaindegreeofpoliticalautonomy.ThetalksapparentlyarestuckatalowerlevelbetweentheTibetansandtheChinesegovernment.Whydontyou,givenyourpowerandyournegotiatingskills,taketheissueyourself--andyouorPresidentHuJintaowouldnegotiatedirectlywiththeDalaiLamaandsolvethisissueonceandforallforthebenefitoftheChinesepeople,andofcoursetheTibetanpeoplewhoarealsoinChina?WenJiabao:OurissuewiththeDalaiLamaisnotaethnic,religiousorculturalissueintheordinarysense.Itsamajorprincipledissueconcerningsafeguardingthecountrysunityorallowingeffortstoseparateacountry.Andwemustadoptatwo-prongedapproachinviewingtheDalaiLama.Ononehand,itistruethattheDalaiisareligiousleader,andheenjoyscertaininfluenceintheTibetanregion,andparticularlyinregionsthattheinhabitantsbelieveinBuddhism.And,ontheotherhand,wemustalsobeawarethatheisnotanordinaryreligiousfigure.Theso-calledgovernmentinexilefoundedbytheDalaiLamapracticesatheocraticrule.Andthepurposeofthisso-calledgovernmentinexileistoseparateTibetfromChina.Inmanyplacesallovertheworld,theDalaiLamakeepspreachingabouttheideaofaso-calledautonomyinthegreaterTibetanregion.Andactually,theso-calledautonomythathepursuesisactuallytousereligiontointerveneinpolitics.Theywanttoseparatetheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionfromthemotherland.AndmanypeopleintheUnitedStateshavenoideahowbigistheso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,theso-calledgreaterTibetanregion,preachedbytheDalaiLama,actuallycoversTibet,Sichuan,Yunnan,QinghaiandGansu--altogetherfiveprovinces.Andtheareacoveredbytheso-calledgreaterTibetanregionaccountsforaquarterofChinasterritory.Fordecades,ourpolicytowardstheDalaiLamaremainsunchanged:thatis,aslongastheDalaiLamaiswillingtorecognizethatTibetisaninalienablepartofChinasterritory,andaslongastheDalaiLamagivesuphisseparatistactivities,werewillingtohavecontactandtalkswithhimorhisrepresentatives.Now,sincerityholdsthekeytoproducingresultoutofthetalks.AftertheTibetincidentbackinthe1950s,thehighestleaderofthecentralgovernment,Mr.DengXiaoping,alsomettherepresentativesoftheDalaiLama.So,Idontthinkthereisthisproblem,aswhetherIcanhavecontactwiththeDalaiLama.Therealkeyliesintheeffectivenessofsuchcontactandtalks.Wehopethathecanuserealactionstoshowsincerityandbreakthedeadlock.Zakaria:WhatactionwouldyouliketoseefromtheDalaiLamathatwouldshowsincerity?WenJiabao:Actually,Ialreadymadeitclearthatwhenweobserveanyindividual,theDalaiLamaincluded,weshouldnotonlywatchwhat,weshouldnotonlyobservewhathesays,butalsowatchwhathedoes.Hissinceritycanbedemonstratedingivingupseparatistactivities.Zakaria:Andthenyoumightmeetwithhim?WenJiabao:Bythen,everythingdependsonthedevelopmentofthesituation.Ofcourse,talksmaycontinue,andinlightoftheprogressinthetalks,wemayalsoconsiderraisingthelevelofthetalks.Zakaria:PremierWen,yourcountryhasgrown,asyoupointedout,9?percentfor30years--fastestgrowthrateofanycountryinhistory.Ifpeoplecometoyouandsaytoyou,WhatistheChinesemodelofsucceedingasadevelopingcountry?Whatwouldyousay?Whatisthekeytoyoursuccess?Whatisthemodel?WenJiabao:Itseasytoanswerthisquestion,thatyoumaythinkaboutthisthing--thatabout30yearsago,whyChinawasnotabletogrowasfastasithasinthefollowingyears.IthinkthisisattributabletothereformsandopeningInrecentyears,therehasbeenasoundgrowthmomentuminthegrowthofChina-U.S.relations.Andwehope,andwhoeveriselectedasthepresidentandwhoeverissworninintotheWhiteHouse,nomatterwhichpartywinstheelection,thatheorsheandthepartieswillcontinuetogrowtherelationshipwithChina.AndChinahopestocontinuetoimproveandgrowitsrelationshipwiththeUnitedStatesnomatterwhowilltakeofficeandleadthenewadministrationinthiscountry.Zakaria:Onthathappynote,Ithankyou,yourexcellency.I'msureyourpeopleareworriedwetookalittleextratime.AndIthankyouinadvanceforyourkindnessandyourfrankness.Inthefirsthalfofthisyear,orgiventhestatisticsforthefirsteightmonthsofthisyear,wecanseethatwehavemanagedtodothat.ApossibleU.S.economicrecessionwillcertainlyhaveanimpactontheChinaeconomy.Asweknowthat10yearsago,theChina-U.S.tradevolumestoodatonly$102.6billionU.S.,whiletodaythefiguressoarto$302billionU.S.,actuallyrepresentinganincreaseof1.5-fold.AshrinkingofU.S.demandwillcertainlyhaveanimpactonChinasexport.AndtheU.S.financeiscloselyconnectedwiththeChinesefinance.IfanythinggoeswrongintheU.S.financialsector,weareanxiousaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesecapital.ThatswhyintheverybeginningIhavemadeitclearthatthefinancialproblemsinthiscountrynotonlyconcernstheinterestsoftheUnitedStatesbutalsothatofChinaandtheworldatlarge.Zakaria:Thereisanothersenseinwhichweareinterdependent.ChinaisthelargestholderofU.S.Treasurybills.Bysomeaccounts,theyreworthalmost$1trillion.ItmakessomeAmericansuneasy.CanyoureassurethemthatChinawouldneverusethisstatusasaweaponinsomeway?WenJiabao:AsIsaid,webelievethattheU.S.realeconomyisstillsolidlybased.Particularlythehigh-techindustriesandthebasicindustries.Now,somethinghasgonewronginthevirtualeconomy,butifthisproblemisproperlyaddressed,thenitisstillpossibletostabilizetheeconomyinthiscountry.TheChinesegovernmenthopesverymuchthattheU.S.sidewillbeabletostabilizeitseconomyandfinanceasquicklyaspossible,andwealsohopetoseesustaineddevelopmentintheUnitedStatesasthatwillbenefitChina.Ofcourse,weareconcernedaboutthesafetyandsecurityofChinesemoneyhere.ButwebelievethattheUnitedStatesisacrediblecountryandparticularlyatsuchdifficulttimes,ChinahasreachedouttotheUnitedStates.Andactuallywebelievesuchahelpinghandwillhelpstabilizetheentireglobaleconomyandfinanceandtopreventamajorchaosfromoccurringintheglobaleconomicandfinancialsystem.Ibelievenowcooperationiseverything.Zakaria:MayIaskyouaboutChinasroleinabroadersense?ManypeopleseeChinaasasuperpoweralready,andtheywonder:whyisitnotbeingmoreactiveinpoliticalresolutionofissuessuchastheissueofDarfurortheissueofIrananditsnuclearambitions?ThereisahopethatChinawillplayaroleasaresponsiblestakeholder,touseRobertZoellicksphrasewhenhewasdeputysecretaryofstate,andthatChinawillbemoreactiveinmanagingthepoliticalproblemsintheworld,andthatsofarithasnotbeenactive.Howwouldyoureacttothat?WenJiabao:Toanswerthisquestion,Ineedtocorrectsomeoftheelementsinyourquestionfirst.ChinaisNOTasuperpower.AlthoughChinahasapopulationof1.3billionandalthoughinrecentyearsChinahasregisteredfairlyfasteconomicandsocialdevelopmentsincereformandopeningup,ChinastillhasthisproblemofunbalanceddevelopmentbetweendifferentregionsandbetweenChinasurbanandruralareas.Chinaremainsadevelopingcountry.Westillhave800millionfarmersinruralareas,andwestillhavedozensofmillionpeoplelivinginpoverty.Asamatteroffact,over60millionpeopleinruralandurbanareasinChinastillliveonallowancesforbasiclivingcostsinmycountry.Andeachyear,weneedtotakecareofabout23millionunemployedinurbanareasandabout200millionfarmerscomeandgotocitiestofindjobsinChina.Weneedtomakecommittedandveryearnesteffortstoaddressalltheseproblems.Toaddressourownproblems,weneedtodoagreatdeal.Chinaisnotasuperpower.Thatswhyweneedtofocusonourowndevelopmentandonoureffortstoimprovepeopleslives.Zakaria:ButsurelytheChinesegovernmentcouldpressuretheSudanesegovernmentortheIraniangovernmentorthegovernmentinBurmatobelessrepressive.Youhaverelationswithallthreeofthem.WenJiabao:Thatbringsmetoyoursecondquestion.Actuallyintheinternationalcommunity,Chinaisajustice-upholdingcountry.Wenevertradeourprinciples.TaketheDarfurissuethatyouraisedjustnowforexample.Chinahasalwaysadvocatedthatweneedtoadoptadual-trackapproachtoseekasolutiontotheDarfurissue.Chinawasamongthefirstcountriessendingpeace-keeperstoDarfur.ChinawasalsothefirstcountrythatgaveassistancetoSudanandwealsokeepoureffortstoengagetheleadersinSudantotrytoseekapeacefulsolutiontotheissueasquicklyaspossible.Zakaria:DoyouthinkitwouldbedangerousfortheworldifIrangotnuclearweapons?Andwhatdoyouthinktheworldshoulddototrytostopthatpossibility?WenJiabao:WearenotsupportiveofanuclearrisetoIran.WebelievethatIranhastherighttodevelopautilizationofnuclearenergyinapeacefulway.Butsucheffortsshouldbesubjecttothesafeguardsofthe[InternationalAtomicEnergyAgency],andIranshouldnotdevelopnuclearweapons.AsfarastheIraniannuclearissueisconcerned,Chinasstanceisclear-cut.Wehopethatthroughpromotingthetalksconcerningthisissue,thatwewillbeabletoencouragetheIranianauthoritiestogiveupanyideatodevelopnuclearweaponsandacceptIAEAsafeguards.Nonetheless,wehopethatwecanusepeacefultalkstoachievethepurpose,ratherthanresorttothewillfuluseofforceortheintim  起源：()-08年的一次采访内容_闾丘露薇_新浪博客